1 00:00:00,310 --> 00:00:09,510 *preroll music* 2 00:00:09,510 --> 00:00:13,510 Herald: Actually, we have two consecutive talks of half an hour. 3 00:00:13,510 --> 00:00:17,869 And as they’re both on the same more-or-less topic 4 00:00:17,869 --> 00:00:22,439 we’ve decided to junk them. One is right now, 5 00:00:22,439 --> 00:00:26,140 that’s Thomas Lohninger from Austria, my home country. 6 00:00:26,140 --> 00:00:29,779 And the next one is Fredy Kuenzler from Switzerland. 7 00:00:29,779 --> 00:00:32,570 And they’re both talking about the same problem. You know the old Churchill 8 00:00:32,570 --> 00:00:36,300 saying: “There’s two things you don’t wanna know exactly, that’s 9 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:41,980 how do they make sausages, and how do they make laws?”. 10 00:00:41,980 --> 00:00:46,540 Well, actually, you do wanna know exactly how they make laws! 11 00:00:46,540 --> 00:00:49,860 Otherwise you find yourself with a law you don’t want. 12 00:00:49,860 --> 00:00:53,340 And a sarco enemy can avoid a banger, but you can’t avoid a law. 13 00:00:53,340 --> 00:00:57,720 So Thomas here is gonna tell you about the fight for net neutrality 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,290 in Europe. And let’s have a big hand for Thomas Lohninger! 15 00:01:02,290 --> 00:01:10,510 *applause* 16 00:01:10,510 --> 00:01:14,070 Thomas: Hello and thank you, everybody! Good. 17 00:01:14,070 --> 00:01:17,689 So, let’s dive right in. We have a lot of ground to cover for the past 3 years 18 00:01:17,689 --> 00:01:22,030 which have to fit in the next 30 minutes. So I’m gonna talk fast at the end, 19 00:01:22,030 --> 00:01:25,359 so that we have a little bit more time for the outlook in the future. 20 00:01:25,359 --> 00:01:29,539 The subtitle of this talk is ‘Alea iacta est’, so ‘the dices have fallen’ 21 00:01:29,539 --> 00:01:33,889 which in fact is not really true. We now have legislation 22 00:01:33,889 --> 00:01:37,710 in Europe for the first time, binding legislation for net neutrality 23 00:01:37,710 --> 00:01:41,909 in all 28 member states. And this talk will be about the history 24 00:01:41,909 --> 00:01:46,600 of this legislation and how civil society played a huge role in this law. 25 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,299 But still the law that we have now is really ambiguous; 26 00:01:49,299 --> 00:01:53,139 so the fight is not over. There are next steps to come which will actually give it 27 00:01:53,139 --> 00:01:57,950 real meaning, and influence what net neutrality we’ll actually have in Europe. 28 00:01:57,950 --> 00:02:02,619 A little bit of introduction: So, net neutrality in principle is 29 00:02:02,619 --> 00:02:07,110 the universality of the network. As you see here 30 00:02:07,110 --> 00:02:10,369 we’re all interconnected over the network and… 31 00:02:10,369 --> 00:02:14,849 the basic foundational principles that boil down in these days 32 00:02:14,849 --> 00:02:19,230 – in the age of deep packet inspection and discriminatory pricing – 33 00:02:19,230 --> 00:02:22,749 net neutrality boils down to discrimination protection. 34 00:02:22,749 --> 00:02:26,069 And it’s basically preventing ISPs to establish 35 00:02:26,069 --> 00:02:29,909 new discriminatory business models. This was also the starting point 36 00:02:29,909 --> 00:02:34,349 for this European legislation called ‘Telecom Civil Market’. It’s a regulation; 37 00:02:34,349 --> 00:02:38,030 that means it’s directly applicable in all 28 member states, 38 00:02:38,030 --> 00:02:41,930 not like a directive. It doesn’t have to be transposed to national legislation, 39 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:45,670 it’s already a law in all 28 countries. 40 00:02:45,670 --> 00:02:50,540 And the responsible commissioner, back in September 2013, when it was introduced, 41 00:02:50,540 --> 00:02:53,500 is this old lady, Neelie Kroes. *Audio/Video playback starts* 42 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:58,970 Neelie Kroes: It is a fact that we are all connected or we want to be connected. 43 00:02:58,970 --> 00:03:04,099 So this package is essential for Europe’s strategic interests, 44 00:03:04,099 --> 00:03:09,939 for Europe’s economic progress. It is absolutely crucial 45 00:03:09,939 --> 00:03:14,299 for the telecom sector itself. And, of course, for citizens 46 00:03:14,299 --> 00:03:19,450 who need full and fair access to telecom services such as 47 00:03:19,450 --> 00:03:23,919 internet, and such as mobile services. *Audio/Video playback stops* 48 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,140 Thomas: “Such as internet”… This is also the spirit of this whole law. 49 00:03:28,140 --> 00:03:32,709 You have internet, which is kind of neutral, and then you have other stuff. 50 00:03:32,709 --> 00:03:36,000 Like specialized services, which you could basically translate in your head to 51 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,780 ‘net neutrality violation’, or ‘paid fast lanes’. And if you look 52 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:43,489 at the original Commission proposal, which they put in front of us, they had 53 00:03:43,489 --> 00:03:47,670 really weird language, like “within the contract that you enter into 54 00:03:47,670 --> 00:03:51,680 with your ISP you’re not allowed to discriminate”. But if the contract states 55 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,040 that you have discriminatory pricing, or different speeds for different types 56 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,989 of applications that would be legal, under the original Commission proposal. 57 00:03:59,989 --> 00:04:04,189 The Commission had a 3-fold strategy: It used the election 58 00:04:04,189 --> 00:04:08,920 to get the Parliament to adopt this regulation really fast, 59 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,390 to put it in a hurry, to rush this thing through before the elections 60 00:04:13,390 --> 00:04:19,339 in May 2014. It used a populist element which was roaming. 61 00:04:19,339 --> 00:04:22,990 If you have heard any coverage about this legislation it was probably 62 00:04:22,990 --> 00:04:27,500 about the roaming part. That Europe would abolish roaming charges 63 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:32,280 which was actually kind of a fuzzy deal. You will still have Roaming charges 64 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:36,270 but you will have different names and different forms. But that was something 65 00:04:36,270 --> 00:04:39,840 which made it essential for all MEPs, for all parliamentarians 66 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:44,210 in the European Parliament to pass this legislation really fast. 67 00:04:44,210 --> 00:04:47,590 And they used bizarre and complex language as you’ve just seen: 68 00:04:47,590 --> 00:04:51,460 the whole regulation was full of that. And the fourth point is 69 00:04:51,460 --> 00:04:55,490 that in their language, in the PR strategy, they were always claiming 70 00:04:55,490 --> 00:04:59,110 to support net neutrality. We see the same thing with Guenther Oettinger now, 71 00:04:59,110 --> 00:05:03,810 the successor of Neelie Kroes, he’s also saying that he supports net neutrality, 72 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:07,450 but in fact he’s doing the opposite. 73 00:05:07,450 --> 00:05:11,020 So what have we done, once this regulation was in front of us? 74 00:05:11,020 --> 00:05:15,040 We started to write amendments in a wiki. Actually it took us 75 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,700 only a month to come up with the first improvements for this text. 76 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:23,030 And I also said that I wanted to give some ‘lessons-learned’. 77 00:05:23,030 --> 00:05:28,669 The first lesson-to-learn if you want to influence European policy is: Come early! 78 00:05:28,669 --> 00:05:32,069 The earlier you are on the table, the earlier you start talking with officials 79 00:05:32,069 --> 00:05:36,310 about a subject the more influence you will have on the process. So 80 00:05:36,310 --> 00:05:40,340 if you want to influence legislation don’t look what is in the calendar next month 81 00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:45,030 – look what is in the calendar in 3 years. Then you have a good chance 82 00:05:45,030 --> 00:05:49,580 to really make a difference. And we had the ‘savetheinternet’ campaign 83 00:05:49,580 --> 00:05:54,180 which was actually launched here on that stage, 3 years ago. 84 00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:59,729 And the talk with Markus Beckedahl at 30C3. 85 00:05:59,729 --> 00:06:05,720 And the website basically followed a simple idea. 86 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,529 Translate attention into political force. Give people something to do. 87 00:06:10,529 --> 00:06:14,490 And provide actionable items – it’s the second lesson that you can take away 88 00:06:14,490 --> 00:06:17,910 from that. You have to give people something to do. 89 00:06:17,910 --> 00:06:20,050 Otherwise they will not care about the subject. Otherwise they will 90 00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:24,389 not get really involved. They will not feel like they have 91 00:06:24,389 --> 00:06:27,729 a part in whatever political issue you wanna raise. 92 00:06:27,729 --> 00:06:31,380 And emboss these actionable items actually; 93 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:35,780 translate the attention and the will of the citizens into something 94 00:06:35,780 --> 00:06:39,300 that’s in front of the officials, in front of the parliamentarians. 95 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:43,699 In our case: calls, faxes, tweets and emails. 96 00:06:43,699 --> 00:06:46,990 These were our actionable items; and 97 00:06:46,990 --> 00:06:51,629 here I also want to thank Michael Bauer who was the core developer 98 00:06:51,629 --> 00:06:55,199 of all the contact-your-MEP tools of savetheinternet 99 00:06:55,199 --> 00:06:59,520 besides the Pi phone from laquadraturedenet who sadly deceased 100 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,029 with a heart attack this year. And… 101 00:07:03,029 --> 00:07:07,759 *applause* 102 00:07:07,759 --> 00:07:12,430 But without him we never would have made it in such a good time. 103 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:15,349 He developed the whole contact suite in like a week or so. 104 00:07:15,349 --> 00:07:21,150 He was a really brilliant person. So the fax thing was really cool. 105 00:07:21,150 --> 00:07:24,550 We sent around 40,000 faxes to the parliament[arian]s, 20,000 of which 106 00:07:24,550 --> 00:07:31,150 were already also received by them. Here again, I want to thank the ISP Kappa 107 00:07:31,150 --> 00:07:35,259 who sponsored us all those faxes for free, for the first round. 108 00:07:35,259 --> 00:07:38,190 We didn’t have to pay for any of them. 109 00:07:38,190 --> 00:07:43,870 So third lesson is: be creative. So faxes were a novel thing, 110 00:07:43,870 --> 00:07:47,780 It wasn’t done any time before. And so they were really influential 111 00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:52,129 because suddenly you would have a physical token of a citizen’s will 112 00:07:52,129 --> 00:07:57,220 in the office of the parliamentarian. But like every creative campaigning idea 113 00:07:57,220 --> 00:08:00,490 only works once or twice now the Parliament has switched to 114 00:08:00,490 --> 00:08:03,950 an electronic fax delivery. So this idea no longer works. 115 00:08:03,950 --> 00:08:09,479 At least not so efficiently. So you have to adopt fast. 116 00:08:09,479 --> 00:08:13,069 This is the process in the European Parliament. 117 00:08:13,069 --> 00:08:16,139 You have these several committees which all adopt their opinions 118 00:08:16,139 --> 00:08:20,580 on the legislation. And then the whole thing goes into the leading committee 119 00:08:20,580 --> 00:08:24,010 – the Industry Committee in this case. And then to plenary. 120 00:08:24,010 --> 00:08:27,389 Here I wanna thank Petra Kammerevert, German Social Democrat. 121 00:08:27,389 --> 00:08:31,889 It was like the only MEP that sticked with us, from the beginning to the end. 122 00:08:31,889 --> 00:08:36,010 She was really fighting like hell. And she was one of the good guys. 123 00:08:36,010 --> 00:08:39,320 One of the bad guys is [Vera] Pilar del Castillo, the Rapporteur down there, 124 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,760 in the ITRE committee. As a Rapporteur she has a lot of power 125 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,670 over the process of this legislation in Europe. And she was really 126 00:08:46,670 --> 00:08:51,309 working against us wherever she could. And also working against the opinion 127 00:08:51,309 --> 00:08:56,240 of the European Parliament. So she was not really negotiating to get the good deal 128 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,269 that the parliament adopted in plenary in first reading. She was really working 129 00:09:00,269 --> 00:09:05,200 to get what the telcos and Telefonica are wanting. And so in the plenary 130 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,390 we actually managed to get amendments through. Before that, it looked quite grim 131 00:09:09,390 --> 00:09:13,510 but we had those amendments which got a majority 132 00:09:13,510 --> 00:09:17,761 and which brought us the victory. Because this legislation is now passed 133 00:09:17,761 --> 00:09:21,830 and published in the journal, I’m now also at liberty to speak a little bit more 134 00:09:21,830 --> 00:09:27,320 about what is the background of it. And actually, 135 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:33,690 as you have here in this email from a UK Social Democrat, 136 00:09:33,690 --> 00:09:38,959 the text came from civil society, which in fact is true. 137 00:09:38,959 --> 00:09:44,649 When we drafted this text there were like 3 things that we had to do. 138 00:09:44,649 --> 00:09:49,320 We had to fix all loop holes. We had to change as little as necessary, 139 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,339 so only minor text changes. Every word is costly. 140 00:09:53,339 --> 00:09:57,330 And we couldn’t use any politically loaded phrases. So we had to come up 141 00:09:57,330 --> 00:10:01,690 with totally new language. Which would solve all problems but still 142 00:10:01,690 --> 00:10:06,590 get a majority which in fact we managed to achieve. 143 00:10:06,590 --> 00:10:15,510 There was also a bigger majority… *applause* 144 00:10:15,510 --> 00:10:19,940 So that’s us celebrating after the victory. And… 145 00:10:19,940 --> 00:10:24,980 that was big fun. So fourth lesson 146 00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:29,090 to take away is: Be clear about your demands with politicians. 147 00:10:29,090 --> 00:10:33,350 You will not succeed in asking for stuff that you will not… 148 00:10:33,350 --> 00:10:36,110 that is impossible for the politician. You have to ask for something 149 00:10:36,110 --> 00:10:39,779 which is realistic. And in their eyes getting a good text in first reading 150 00:10:39,779 --> 00:10:45,100 was realistic. But there were many formality arguments in second reading. 151 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:48,690 Which worked against us, and at the end broke our necks. 152 00:10:48,690 --> 00:10:52,639 One was that the parliament is not really emancipated from 153 00:10:52,639 --> 00:10:57,180 the other institutions. Council has much more power. So the member states 154 00:10:57,180 --> 00:11:01,740 really can make demands and draw red lines that the parliament is not really willing 155 00:11:01,740 --> 00:11:06,980 to step over. And ‘second reading’ also means that you need an absolute majority 156 00:11:06,980 --> 00:11:11,660 for any amendment. Not just a simple majority. So half of all MEPs 157 00:11:11,660 --> 00:11:15,690 and not just those who are present at the vote. 158 00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:20,149 But it’s not all just the first reading: here you have a basic idea of 159 00:11:20,149 --> 00:11:25,029 how laws are adopted in the European Union. With the Commission on top, 160 00:11:25,029 --> 00:11:29,579 the Parliament at the left and the member states in the Council on the right. 161 00:11:29,579 --> 00:11:33,660 And we had savetheinternet campaigns for all of those steps. 162 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:36,959 And basically when the Commission adopted their proposal that was of course 163 00:11:36,959 --> 00:11:41,120 anti net neutrality at its best. The Parliament fixed it, 164 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,690 the Council reverted it and really came up with a text that was partly even worse 165 00:11:45,690 --> 00:11:49,440 than what the Commission originally wanted. 166 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,860 And then those 3 institutions sat together in the most intransparent way 167 00:11:54,860 --> 00:12:01,310 you could imagine… and came together and made a new text. 168 00:12:01,310 --> 00:12:04,680 And the agreement here, in trialub (?), that was actually reached 169 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:09,199 at 2 AM with everybody almost asleep, everybody like: 170 00:12:09,199 --> 00:12:13,940 “Okay, let’s fix this, let’s fix this…”. And the Liberals, 171 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:18,470 the Greens, the Left, all of them were already out of the room. They were saying: 172 00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:21,910 “Okay, no deal, we’ll continue after the summer break, 173 00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:25,880 let’s just not continue any more discussion!” And then 174 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,209 the negotiator from the Social Democrats, Patricia Toia, she was already standing 175 00:12:30,209 --> 00:12:33,740 in the doorway with her handbag in her hand. 176 00:12:33,740 --> 00:12:36,959 And then she agreed to this proposal. 177 00:12:36,959 --> 00:12:41,019 Because the Conservatives gave her some concessions on Roaming, then she agreed, 178 00:12:41,019 --> 00:12:44,550 to the shitty net neutrality. So that’s it actually what it boils down to, 179 00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:49,850 at some stages. And it was [Pilar del] Castillo who was driving this compromise. 180 00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:52,660 So we had a really bad text which was on the table. 181 00:12:52,660 --> 00:12:56,660 And agreed between all 3 institutions. But then it would still need 182 00:12:56,660 --> 00:13:00,760 to go through Parliament. And we had to ask ourselves 183 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,310 over the summer break: “Is this text worse than useless?” Should we really 184 00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:07,950 fight for amendments, or should we fight for deletion? 185 00:13:07,950 --> 00:13:12,580 This was a huge argument within the savetheinternet coalition. 186 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:16,700 And even I was sympathetic with both sides. 187 00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:19,860 But at the end we thought this text is better than 188 00:13:19,860 --> 00:13:23,940 e.g. what the US had in their first net neutrality law. And therefor 189 00:13:23,940 --> 00:13:28,420 it’s worth fighting. Because maybe there are countries, like Austria, like Germany, 190 00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:31,860 like the Netherlands that have or would adopt good legislation. 191 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:36,470 But many other countries would not. And so, in the sense of the European Union 192 00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:42,040 we thought: “Better have this compromise for 28 instead of just a few good laws.” 193 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,649 And then something really magical happened. Because finally we got support 194 00:13:44,649 --> 00:13:49,160 from the US. We had Barbara van Schewick, the world’s leading expert 195 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,339 and scientist on net neutrality speaking out in support for us. 196 00:13:53,339 --> 00:13:57,320 So did Lawrence Lessig, so did Sir Tim Berners-Lee, and 197 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,030 many other supporters. And we also had companies getting involved, start-ups 198 00:14:01,030 --> 00:14:05,630 and big internet companies like Wordpress. And we also had venture capitalists 199 00:14:05,630 --> 00:14:09,800 that urged the parliamentarians to really adopt these amendments, 200 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,029 make this a clear legislation. Because otherwise they would stop investing 201 00:14:13,029 --> 00:14:18,520 into European start-ups. Because I would not get money into a business model 202 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,190 which might not work in a few months. 203 00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:27,009 And also in Germany we had big support from the media authorities, 204 00:14:27,009 --> 00:14:31,200 the Landesmedienanstalten, and the Association of German Journalists. 205 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,910 Many others. But really, what we didn’t do here, we didn’t come early. 206 00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:39,110 This was all a last-minute action. The real traction this whole thing gained 207 00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:42,680 one week before the final vote! And that was too late. 208 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,260 If we could have had this traction, this media coverage beforehand 209 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:51,000 then it might have turned out differently. But what you can take away from that is 210 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,519 that we have to broaden our movement. That we really have to go 211 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:59,440 out of the net political nerd bubble. We have to reach other people. 212 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,029 Digital rights issues are broad civil society issues. 213 00:15:03,029 --> 00:15:07,100 And we have to treat them as such. Go to the churches. Go to the journalists. 214 00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:12,350 Go to whomever is willing to listen, and make your cause, and broaden the movement. 215 00:15:12,350 --> 00:15:16,490 And we had really creative actions like here in Barcelona. 216 00:15:16,490 --> 00:15:22,070 Our member Xnet had this nice projection on the building of Telefonica. 217 00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:26,290 But at the end it didn’t work. We failed in Second Reading. And I have 218 00:15:26,290 --> 00:15:31,020 to speed up a little bit and explain you why this is not the end of net neutrality. 219 00:15:31,020 --> 00:15:35,509 I know this was in the media quite heavily. And if you look at it binarily, 220 00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:38,960 of course this is a loss for us because we campaigned for amendments 221 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,720 and we did not succeed. But still the text it’s now on the table. 222 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,170 The biggest problem is that it’s ambiguous. 223 00:15:45,170 --> 00:15:49,860 But it has some good parts in it. And one word of advice: you have to keep in mind 224 00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:53,050 that the US also needed two approaches to get this right. 225 00:15:53,050 --> 00:15:57,560 The first net neutrality laws were even worse than what we have now. 226 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,949 There is clarity that this is now applicable – not only to fixed line 227 00:16:00,949 --> 00:16:06,060 but also to mobile internet. And at least we’ll see no longer commercial blocking 228 00:16:06,060 --> 00:16:09,800 in Europe. You could still have state blocking, so like censorship lists 229 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,850 from any public authority. But you could not e.g. block Skype 230 00:16:13,850 --> 00:16:20,000 if you are a mobile operator and want people corner into using your own roaming. 231 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,100 There is intentional ambiguity, and all the big questions about net neutrality and 232 00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:29,290 paid fast lanes. And so the real decision is now left to the unelected regulators. 233 00:16:29,290 --> 00:16:33,630 And to the unelected judges. We most certainly expect court cases 234 00:16:33,630 --> 00:16:38,490 in front of the European High Court. And this means huge legal uncertainty. 235 00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:44,029 Which is really bad. Not only for citizens but also for business. 236 00:16:44,029 --> 00:16:50,020 So there are 4 big subjects we have to cover. 237 00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:54,009 That are still in the debate now with the European regulator that’s now tasked with 238 00:16:54,009 --> 00:16:59,000 giving this law actual meaning. Specialized services… 239 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,730 as I said you could translate it in your head with ‘paid fast lanes’ 240 00:17:02,730 --> 00:17:06,660 and ‘not net neutrality’ or with ‘those services that really have nothing to do 241 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:10,630 with the internet’. That has to be our goal here. There are 5 safeguards 242 00:17:10,630 --> 00:17:15,540 in the regulation that we have to apply right and then we can still achieve 243 00:17:15,540 --> 00:17:21,660 that goal. But the regulators… like these are the 28 organizations 244 00:17:21,660 --> 00:17:26,210 in Europe that are tasked with regulating the telecom markets. 245 00:17:26,210 --> 00:17:29,590 They are not doing anything else than reading laws and applying them 246 00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:34,040 on the market. And that’s one of the questions they asked us in the hearing. 247 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,020 So would it be okay to have internet services as specialized services? 248 00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:42,610 And you can see how really vague and ambiguous this law is, if this is 249 00:17:42,610 --> 00:17:47,720 the basic question that they’re asking us. Similarly with zero rating, the practice 250 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,250 of commercial discrimination. If some data packages cost more than others. 251 00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:56,130 Again, we have some sort of safeguard here. 252 00:17:56,130 --> 00:18:00,980 But ‘commercial practices’ is the corner word here. Because zero rating 253 00:18:00,980 --> 00:18:05,100 is not mentioned in the whole legislation. ‘Commercial practices’ – and that’s 254 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:09,260 the funny part. They’re asking us – the regulators asking civil society – 255 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:13,580 what in our understanding ‘commercial practices’ actually means. And 256 00:18:13,580 --> 00:18:17,750 from our perspective there are 2 ways of seeing it. Either it means ‘zero rating’ 257 00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:22,180 in which case it has to be prohibited. Or it means anything else in which case 258 00:18:22,180 --> 00:18:29,980 e.g. it could mean ‘interconnection’. That applies perfectly to the legislation. 259 00:18:29,980 --> 00:18:35,100 But in that case this whole topic would be left for national legislation. 260 00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:39,650 So the Dutch net neutrality law could still outlaw zero rating, 261 00:18:39,650 --> 00:18:44,380 or Germany could adopt a new law which would prohibit that practice. 262 00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:48,750 A very important point which was sadly not so much discussed 263 00:18:48,750 --> 00:18:53,460 is traffic management. There is a risk that ISPs could introduce 264 00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:59,070 a class based CIF system to manage congestion, e.g. That would look like: 265 00:18:59,070 --> 00:19:02,180 “Okay, we have all video streaming applications in one class 266 00:19:02,180 --> 00:19:07,500 and we prioritize them. But we don’t prioritize telephony applications, 267 00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:12,020 because although they also are delay-sensitive they are 268 00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:16,210 against our own business models, and therefor we are not prioritizing them.” 269 00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:20,190 Class-based traffic management has another big problem. And you can look at the UK 270 00:19:20,190 --> 00:19:27,340 where this is a common practice. If you want to throttle file-sharing 271 00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:30,690 and you have some gaming applications that look similar like file-sharing 272 00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:33,930 you could end up with throttled gaming applications 273 00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:38,650 which make the games unusable. And so in the UK you have now 274 00:19:38,650 --> 00:19:43,750 standing committees between game developers and ISPs like Plusnet 275 00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:47,950 and before they have a rollout of a new game they have to sit down and agree 276 00:19:47,950 --> 00:19:51,220 on the technical characteristics, so that the game actually works 277 00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:55,120 in the British internet. And this is the total opposite of innovation 278 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:59,400 without permission. And from our understanding 279 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,700 traffic management always has to be as application agnostic as possible. 280 00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:08,290 So: only look at the header, don’t look in the contents of the package, 281 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:13,640 don’t make any differentiation between applications or services. 282 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,960 And there’s also a problem: If you look at the content, if you want 283 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,960 to treat encrypted traffic differently there is a risk that all encrypted traffic 284 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:29,030 could end up in the slow lane. 285 00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:32,600 In principle this is what we want to achieve. Be as application agnostic 286 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,950 as possible and then only allow traffic management based 287 00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:41,030 on technical characteristics where it is really necessary and proportionate 288 00:20:41,030 --> 00:20:44,140 and you cannot solve the problem in any other way. And then only 289 00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:49,990 if this is not sufficient you could resert to a class-based system. 290 00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:54,140 Transparency – we will see some big change here 291 00:20:54,140 --> 00:20:57,850 when it comes to advertised and real speeds of internet. 292 00:20:57,850 --> 00:21:00,960 So if this regulation enters into force and if the transparency provisions 293 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,140 are applied correctly you will no longer have just up to a certain 294 00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:08,910 Megabyte [per second] of internet; instead you will have a minimum, an average 295 00:21:08,910 --> 00:21:12,220 and a maximum bandwidth which has to be stated in the contract. So 296 00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:17,370 more accurate information for consumers. Now, 297 00:21:17,370 --> 00:21:21,140 this is the organization that is now tasked with making actual sense 298 00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:26,560 out of this legislation. So this is the umbrella of all 28 regulatory authorities 299 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:31,930 in Europe. Like Bundesnetzagentur in Germany, or RTR in Austria. 300 00:21:31,930 --> 00:21:35,870 All those come together under the umbrella of BEREC; and 301 00:21:35,870 --> 00:21:39,710 they now have until the end of august, according to the regulation, 302 00:21:39,710 --> 00:21:43,630 to come up with actual guidelines that give this text real meaning. 303 00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:47,570 And if we look at the timeline this is basically our work programme 304 00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:50,920 which we’ll have to fill with life. 305 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,380 The parliament adopted the regulation in October; and 306 00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:58,230 it was published in the journal on November 26 which gives us the 9 months 307 00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:03,180 of time we now have. And there was a stakeholder hearing 308 00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:07,220 from civil society; I could participate for EDRI; and 309 00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:11,210 we basically sat down with the regulators and gave them our interpretation 310 00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:14,580 of the text. But just so did also the content application providers 311 00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:18,650 like the public broadcasters, or internet companies; 312 00:22:18,650 --> 00:22:22,070 and so did the telecom industry. So now they have to strike a balance 313 00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:25,520 between those 3 stakeholder groups. 314 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,800 We’re now at a point where the working groups are drafting the guidelines. 315 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,050 Really weird fact: the whole regulation will enter into force 316 00:22:35,050 --> 00:22:38,630 at the end of April. Although the guidelines are not applicable there. 317 00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:41,220 And nobody could answer the question what this actually means 318 00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:46,840 if there would be a case, in this period between April and August. 319 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,630 So this working draft will then be voted in plenary 320 00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:54,400 at the end of June, and then we’ll have 20 days of public consultation. 321 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,290 You’ll have 20 days to say what you think about 322 00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:02,110 the new net neutrality in Europe. Which is ridiculous. And then they have 323 00:23:02,110 --> 00:23:06,640 roughly a little bit less than two months to analyze all this feedback, 324 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,450 and to redraft the guidelines. So the more feedback they receive 325 00:23:10,450 --> 00:23:14,810 the fewer time they’ll have to actually redraft the whole thing before it’s 326 00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:18,330 finally voted in the extraordinary plenary within BEREC. 327 00:23:18,330 --> 00:23:23,500 So that it can be published. So let’s focus on those 20 days. 328 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:28,750 In the US we had several months of consultation and 4 Mio. comments. 329 00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:34,370 In India it was 28 days. Still 1 Mio. comments. 330 00:23:34,370 --> 00:23:36,970 And they are continuing. They all have another consultation up and running 331 00:23:36,970 --> 00:23:41,010 right now. And now in Europe we have 20 days. 332 00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:44,330 So this is the comparison that we face. 333 00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:47,700 And this also means for European civil society and all those people 334 00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:51,690 who care about the internet – this is the time line, and this is the opportunity 335 00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:56,270 that we have. We can look at the US. 336 00:23:56,270 --> 00:24:00,660 This is an analysis of the comments that were given to the FCC 337 00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:04,390 when they first asked for opinions about net neutrality. 338 00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:10,550 And there is now a huge collection of scientific papers, 339 00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:14,870 visualizations and everything about this huge record 340 00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:18,690 about the topic of net neutrality. So you can see that there are 341 00:24:18,690 --> 00:24:22,251 so many issues that – also organically – that people commented [on]. 342 00:24:22,251 --> 00:24:26,930 You have very few templates in here. So out of these 4 Mio. comments 343 00:24:26,930 --> 00:24:31,590 many of them are actually people sitting down, writing in their own words 344 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:35,380 what they think about the subject. How it would influence their business. 345 00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:39,371 How it would influence their education. How it would influence the network 346 00:24:39,371 --> 00:24:42,960 that they are running. And you have many interesting stuff like 347 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,420 “you need net neutrality for the American Dream”. 348 00:24:48,420 --> 00:24:51,930 And the idea behind that is also a “maybe we can take some advice 349 00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:56,030 from the US, here, for Europe”. That America is America 350 00:24:56,030 --> 00:25:00,660 because you can connect to different opinions. At the core of net neutrality 351 00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:04,980 you have the equality of the network. And this was preserved here 352 00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:09,520 with the new rules in the US; and we should really take advice on that. 353 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,270 And that’s also why we as savetheinternet coalition 354 00:25:14,270 --> 00:25:17,440 will come up with a new version of the website. That will 355 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,860 support the consultation and extend it, not just in the 20 days 356 00:25:20,860 --> 00:25:25,680 but for a longer time period. So that more of you have the opportunity 357 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,350 to have an actionable item, to do something for this legislation. 358 00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:33,770 And to really have your say. 359 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:38,000 In the remaining time I would like to step a little bit out of Europe 360 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,970 and follow the motto of this year’s Congress, 361 00:25:41,970 --> 00:25:47,600 and look a bit at the global issue. 362 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,870 You see now there’s… many legislation are actually discussed 363 00:25:51,870 --> 00:25:56,321 or already in place. It varies greatly in the amount of safeguard 364 00:25:56,321 --> 00:26:02,560 that it provides for citizens. And thanks to Andre Meister from netzpolitik.org 365 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,390 we have a little collection of all the billboards and advertisements 366 00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:10,770 in Latin America about zero rating. So let’s have a look how this is 367 00:26:10,770 --> 00:26:14,520 seen in Peru, in Chile and other countries. You have here 368 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,000 free social networking which is huge advertisement donors. 369 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,740 And you have full internet with this websites. 370 00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:27,790 And we’re not speaking about nerdy stuff. This is like a selling proposition, 371 00:26:27,790 --> 00:26:33,670 that you can have these services for free, therefor buy my SIMCard, buy my internet. 372 00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:37,440 And it goes on and on like that. But it 373 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,430 gets really ugly if you look at what’s happening in India right now. 374 00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:45,350 Facebook has this program called internet.org which is basically 375 00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:50,050 a gated community which gives poor people without any access 376 00:26:50,050 --> 00:26:55,210 to the internet just access to Facebook and a few other sites. 377 00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:58,650 And Facebook is now on the offensive. They are asking citizens 378 00:26:58,650 --> 00:27:03,310 to lobby the regulator against net neutrality. 379 00:27:03,310 --> 00:27:06,720 They’re really challenged in that, and you could see that Facebook was 380 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,940 fast responding because the public pressure in India 381 00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:16,230 amounted to companies, and telecom actors and also politicians 382 00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:21,250 publicly denouncing this program. I can only quote 383 00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:26,090 one of the founders of savetheinternet.in, Nikhil Baba. 384 00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:29,910 He said yesterday that the only question that he would ask Mark Zuckerberg 385 00:27:29,910 --> 00:27:35,140 who is always on the forefront to defend his program: 386 00:27:35,140 --> 00:27:39,220 “Why is he just giving these free basic services 387 00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:42,410 with just a few selected hundred sites 388 00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:46,350 instead of giving them the whole access to the internet?”. If you give 389 00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:50,380 the bandwidth that’s reserved for these programs just freely to everybody 390 00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:54,480 so that they can use them in whatever way they want you would achieve 391 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,730 exactly the same commercial interest for the telecom providers. 392 00:27:58,730 --> 00:28:04,340 And there are similar programs from Mozilla and also from other Indian ISPs 393 00:28:04,340 --> 00:28:09,300 that just give people 3 months of a few megabytes 394 00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:12,030 to get them hooked on the internet. If this is just the idea 395 00:28:12,030 --> 00:28:16,800 to bridge the digital gap by getting people some sense of our internet 396 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,390 that could be easily done by that way. 397 00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:25,230 We have to look at the challenges for the global net neutrality movement. 398 00:28:25,230 --> 00:28:30,170 This issue is far from just a Western debate right now. 399 00:28:30,170 --> 00:28:34,050 And we always have been wondering in the Digital Rights movement how it would be 400 00:28:34,050 --> 00:28:37,930 if Google or Facebook would be on the other side of our debate. 401 00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:41,590 If they really would fight against us. We can look at the global south. 402 00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:45,030 It’s first happening there. So 403 00:28:45,030 --> 00:28:49,160 that’s the end of my talk and also my time. I want to thank you. 404 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,970 I want to urge you to keep fighting; net neutrality is not lost in Europe. 405 00:28:52,970 --> 00:28:56,020 It’s more like we now have a really ambiguous law. 406 00:28:56,020 --> 00:29:00,820 The responsibility lies now with the regulators. So we are in a way 407 00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:05,400 at a point where the US was in 2014. And now we have to do a similar mobilization. 408 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,000 We have to do a similar form of argumentation to get it right. 409 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,870 And savetheinternet is a coalition of 12 NGOs, 410 00:29:15,870 --> 00:29:20,530 and we don’t have one fixed hub, but there is a lot of development going on 411 00:29:20,530 --> 00:29:25,700 in Austria. And we’ll also have a workshop today at 6 PM at the EDRI assembly 412 00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:31,471 at Noisy Square. If you want to get involved, if you have a special interest, 413 00:29:31,471 --> 00:29:36,650 a business, or are an ISP, then please participate in this workshop 414 00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:40,470 to get the new savetheinternet as best as we can. Thank you! 415 00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:52,430 *applause* 416 00:29:52,430 --> 00:29:55,090 Herald: Okay, we gonna do something unorthodox today. We gonna have 417 00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:59,460 the next talk right onto this one. Please – flying change of people 418 00:29:59,460 --> 00:30:03,460 who wanna come and leave! Because the two talks are related we’ll have 419 00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:07,400 Ten minutes of Q&A after the next talk. 420 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,370 So here’s – das ist jetzt eine Schwietzer Angelegenheit – 421 00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:15,320 this is the gentleman from Switzerland, Fredy Kuenzler! 422 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,460 Fredy: He speaks Fribourg dialect! *laughter* 423 00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:25,260 Can you believe that? Fribourg – and pretty good actually! 424 00:30:25,260 --> 00:30:30,000 Herald: We both agree that buffering sucks, so please, let me have a hand 425 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,150 for – Fredy Kuenzler! *applause* 426 00:30:32,150 --> 00:30:40,530 *applause* 427 00:30:40,530 --> 00:30:44,910 Fredy Kuenzler: Thank you! My name is Fredy Kuenzler. Gruetzi mitanand’! 428 00:30:44,910 --> 00:30:50,620 I was thinking whether to have the talk in Swiss German or in English… 429 00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:52,660 Herald: Sorry, excuse me for a moment - Fredy: Never mind. 430 00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:57,240 Herald: This is unorthodo… when you leave, please leave in peace, and quiet. 431 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,520 Okay? And give him a chance. Fredy: *laughs* 432 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,920 So Swiss German would be an option for me. 433 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:10,510 English, because you know the Swiss don’t speak proper German. 434 00:31:10,510 --> 00:31:18,830 My six year old digital native 435 00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:23,420 is telling people rather proud that his Dad invented the fastest internet 436 00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:26,690 in Switzerland. It’s called Fiber7. 437 00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:31,630 *applause* Thank you. 438 00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:36,280 While we went to Greece for vacation, I was in a target conflict, 439 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:42,370 because I had to explain him why he couldn’t watch YouTube. 440 00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:47,200 I mean Greece, you know it’s maybe a bit difficult, 441 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,550 but as a matter of fact, here in Hamburg it’s not any better. 442 00:31:51,550 --> 00:31:58,020 I’m next door in the hotel InterCity and they offer “free Wi-Fi” 443 00:31:58,020 --> 00:32:02,290 with 256 kbit/s. *laughter* 444 00:32:02,290 --> 00:32:07,950 If you want 5 Mbit internet, you pay 8 Euros extra, 445 00:32:07,950 --> 00:32:13,690 per day. So this is where we are in 2015. 446 00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:18,060 A few words about me: I’m married, one son as I said. 447 00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:23,640 He was born 2009. He was able to unlock the iPhone 448 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,900 with the age of 17 months. No one showed him how. 449 00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:31,150 *laughter and mumbling* 450 00:32:31,150 --> 00:32:35,470 My early connection with digital techniques 451 00:32:35,470 --> 00:32:41,980 was about 1978 when I was playing with these chips 7400. 452 00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:47,190 Who knows them? Raise your hand. – Few, thanks. 453 00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:53,090 Later on I did an apprenticeship as a Fernmelde- und Elektronikapparatemonteur. 454 00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:59,500 And I started to do IT business about 1991. 455 00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:05,080 Then 1996 – almost 20 years ago – we started with Linux stuff. 456 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,800 My first Linux was Suse 4.2. 457 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,410 In the year 2000 we started with Init7 and later on I became president 458 00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:20,500 of the SwissIX association. This is an association 459 00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:26,040 which runs an Internet Exchange. I had also my time in a startup called Zattoo. 460 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,250 It’s a network architecture OTT IP Television. 461 00:33:31,250 --> 00:33:36,360 Besides, I need a hobby, so I’m also a politician for the Social Democrats 462 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:41,370 in my city parliament, already 8 years. 463 00:33:41,370 --> 00:33:45,600 Then I started with the other hobby, Fiber7 as you know. 464 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,280 Oh besides, I was also working in an internet expert group 465 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,340 of the Social Democrats Switzerland. There the internet paper 466 00:33:55,340 --> 00:34:01,140 was adopted earlier this month 467 00:34:01,140 --> 00:34:06,710 by the national Delegiertenversammlung. I don’t know what this is in English. 468 00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:12,690 So, Buffering sucks! Ladies and Gentlemen, this talk is not about Deutsche Telekom. 469 00:34:12,690 --> 00:34:18,490 It’s not about peering. It’s not about interconnection. It’s about these 470 00:34:18,490 --> 00:34:24,580 thousands and millions of youngsters out there which want to watch YouTube 471 00:34:24,580 --> 00:34:28,810 in HD resolution without buffering. 472 00:34:28,810 --> 00:34:35,389 So let’s quickly look at the reason why YouTube and all the other video buffer. 473 00:34:35,389 --> 00:34:40,668 It’s usually lack of bandwidth. If you have a 2 Meg DSL 474 00:34:40,668 --> 00:34:47,909 or if you have an InterCity free Wi-Fi with 250 kilobits; 475 00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:55,409 so HD video is not possible. Sometimes they have old PCs, 476 00:34:55,409 --> 00:34:59,400 so CPU power is an issue – these days no longer relevant. 477 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,900 Wi-Fi quality sucks sometimes. This is rather an individual issue. 478 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:08,010 And sometimes we have an over-subscription 479 00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:13,010 of the shared node – mainly in cable networks. 480 00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:16,860 Streaming source can be too far away. If you stream from the U.S., 481 00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:22,860 it doesn’t really go well. That’s why we have so many CDN, 482 00:35:22,860 --> 00:35:28,650 Content Delivery Network systems, close to the end users. 483 00:35:28,650 --> 00:35:32,290 Then adaptive streaming can be an advantage, 484 00:35:32,290 --> 00:35:37,460 but also disadvantage. You cannot turn it off. When you watch HD 485 00:35:37,460 --> 00:35:42,190 and the connection sucks you just cannot keep it on HD. 486 00:35:42,190 --> 00:35:48,240 It just drops to SD or lower resolution. It works, yes. 487 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:54,250 But Claire Underwood in low-res is not so cool. 488 00:35:54,250 --> 00:35:58,810 Routing algorithm issues – sometimes it’s a mismatch of client and server. 489 00:35:58,810 --> 00:36:04,340 If your client is assigned to the wrong CDN server, then it’s also slow. 490 00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:08,340 Anycast routing is a trick sometimes. And, last but not least 491 00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:15,270 and the most important thing: It’s over-subscribed interconnections. 492 00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:20,020 We go back quickly to the old days. The caller pays. 493 00:36:20,020 --> 00:36:25,089 When you call your mother-in-law and you talk with her 494 00:36:25,089 --> 00:36:30,900 – well, she talks to you for 45 minutes and you say hello and goodbye – 495 00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:36,550 you still pay the call. *laughter* 496 00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:41,470 So with YouTube it’s not any different. 497 00:36:41,470 --> 00:36:47,070 You click YouTube and then YouTube talks to you for hours maybe 498 00:36:47,070 --> 00:36:52,340 and then you say goodbye, basically. So is the broadband customer 499 00:36:52,340 --> 00:36:57,270 calling the YouTube server or is it vice versa? Is the YouTube server calling 500 00:36:57,270 --> 00:37:03,630 the broadband customer? Probably it’s the broadband customer who calls. 501 00:37:03,630 --> 00:37:08,930 But still the data is flowing from the server to the client. 502 00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:13,970 But the client is causing the traffic, because he is requesting the traffic. 503 00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:22,670 And if we look at the structure of the internet, we have basically… 504 00:37:22,670 --> 00:37:28,200 (doesn’t work here, red button is dead, never mind!) 505 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,770 …we have the end user to the right. 506 00:37:31,770 --> 00:37:35,130 We have – here is the provider network 507 00:37:35,130 --> 00:37:41,130 and the end user is only connected to the provider’s network. 508 00:37:41,130 --> 00:37:46,250 On the left side we have all the content in the internet. We have the media 509 00:37:46,250 --> 00:37:52,220 and video and streaming and Torrent and… you name it. 510 00:37:52,220 --> 00:37:59,870 But there is always only one way going to the end user. 511 00:37:59,870 --> 00:38:08,620 It’s the yellow marked interconnection points and there is no way around them. 512 00:38:08,620 --> 00:38:17,000 This basically means, the provider can monopolize the end customer. 513 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,560 At least as long [as] he is connected or subscribed. 514 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,100 There is no alternative way. 515 00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:31,210 So this gives the provider 516 00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:34,720 a position of power. 517 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,120 On the other hand these interconnection points used to be 518 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:44,040 – for a long period of time – so called Zero Settlement interconnections, 519 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,930 and they are basically the foundation of the internet. 520 00:38:47,930 --> 00:38:51,630 Without Zero Settlement peering, without interconnection 521 00:38:51,630 --> 00:38:56,160 the internet wouldn’t exist as we know it. 522 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,430 The broadband provider, mainly the incumbent, 523 00:39:00,430 --> 00:39:03,910 the ex-monopolist, or large cable operators, 524 00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:07,240 they tend to become more and more restrictive 525 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:12,210 to provide sufficient interconnection capacity. 526 00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:16,330 Not upgrading interconnection to the requirements 527 00:39:16,330 --> 00:39:23,590 is very common these days and it’s a passive aggressive behaviour. 528 00:39:23,590 --> 00:39:31,080 So many providers – to name a few: Deutsche Telekom – 529 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,040 they just do nothing. They just wait. 530 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,480 And the end customers are suffering. Buffering is very common, especially 531 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:43,950 during prime-time. This is basically what the topic of… 532 00:39:43,950 --> 00:39:48,620 …the main topic of this conference is: It’s a gated community. The provider 533 00:39:48,620 --> 00:39:57,010 creates a gated community for his own end customers. 534 00:39:57,010 --> 00:40:01,140 So as I said before: 535 00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:05,520 The data is flowing from the server, from the video server to the end customer. 536 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,660 It’s about 50 times more traffic flowing to the client 537 00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:15,740 and the usual traffic ratio we have 538 00:40:15,740 --> 00:40:20,580 for a broadband provider is 1:5 or 1:10. So they’re pulling about 539 00:40:20,580 --> 00:40:26,060 10 times more traffic towards the end customer. 540 00:40:26,060 --> 00:40:32,290 Then we have this interconnection policy. So they don’t do anything. 541 00:40:32,290 --> 00:40:37,360 As I said before, they just over-subscribe 542 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:43,010 the existing interconnection. And if you want to upgrade you have to 543 00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:48,010 have a traffic ratio of about 1:1.5 to 1.3. 544 00:40:48,010 --> 00:40:53,760 But no video stream service can deliver traffic 545 00:40:53,760 --> 00:41:00,000 and also maintain the traffic ratio. No content provider can. 546 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,290 So all they can do is: They can pay money to get upgraded. 547 00:41:04,290 --> 00:41:08,810 And if they don’t pay, data is stuck in congestion 548 00:41:08,810 --> 00:41:18,530 and their clients are suffering, seeing the buffering sign. 549 00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:22,810 Large broadband providers, such as the incumbents and cable providers, 550 00:41:22,810 --> 00:41:28,860 they want to get paid twice. They are able to force the money 551 00:41:28,860 --> 00:41:32,980 due to the temporary monopoly – as I explained. 552 00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:36,860 And they can ask money from the end customer and on the other hand 553 00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:40,450 also from the content. 554 00:41:40,450 --> 00:41:44,190 This is called double-sided market. And if they don’t pay, 555 00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:49,750 the content is not paying, this is what we see. And sometimes – as a side note – 556 00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:55,470 the end customer pays, but still sees this. 557 00:41:55,470 --> 00:41:59,540 But IP interconnection would be cheap. 558 00:41:59,540 --> 00:42:04,030 The business cost per broadband customer is just a few cents per month. 559 00:42:04,030 --> 00:42:10,220 And if the provider would invest this, people would be happy. 560 00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:17,170 On top content providers are easy to deal for peering or provide cache servers etc. 561 00:42:17,170 --> 00:42:23,620 So please talk to our community fellows of Akamai, Apple, 562 00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:28,800 Amazon, Facebook, Google, Limelight, Netflix. 563 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:36,110 T is not Telekom, it’s Twitch. And Zattoo, and a lot of others. 564 00:42:36,110 --> 00:42:40,280 So traffic congestion is costly. 565 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,280 I took a random Google search and was looking for 566 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:51,270 how much traffic is actually costing. And “Die Welt” showed the result: 567 00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:59,780 “Staus kosten in jedem Haushalt 509€/Jahr”. 568 00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:05,310 So my assumption was: If traffic jam is costing money, 569 00:43:05,310 --> 00:43:09,120 then probably data traffic jam is also costing some money. 570 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:19,140 But I figured that no one was really exploring that field, yet. 571 00:43:19,140 --> 00:43:22,960 So I thought I’m going to do a little “Milchbüechlirächnig” 572 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,430 *laughter* 573 00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:31,530 *applause* 574 00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:37,600 When I was a child, the milk man came every morning and we just put our order 575 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:43,330 into the Milchbüechli and he put the milk into the box outside of the house. 576 00:43:43,330 --> 00:43:51,130 By the end of the month, we went to the shop and paid our Milchbüechlirächnig. 577 00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:55,210 So this is my quick calculation: We have about 30 million broadband connections 578 00:43:55,210 --> 00:44:03,150 in Germany. I assume that everybody is waiting for one minute accumulated 579 00:44:03,150 --> 00:44:07,360 while watching Netflix, YouTube, whatever. Probably this is far too less. 580 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:13,030 Who thinks one minute is fine, or – who thinks one minute is not enough? 581 00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:18,700 Oh, ok, so let’s stick with one minute for the calculation. 582 00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:23,150 And I also assumed that 5€ / hour waiting 583 00:44:23,150 --> 00:44:30,490 is a good salary. So if you think, 5€ is not enough, 584 00:44:30,490 --> 00:44:35,300 you can adapt the calculation. This is called “Reservationslohn”. 585 00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:39,850 I have no clue what it means, but this was on Wikipedia, 586 00:44:39,850 --> 00:44:43,750 for time when you take a job or refuse a job, 587 00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:48,900 how much would be the value for the spare time. 588 00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:54,540 So this is my calculation: If you wait one minute per day, this is 6 hours per year. 589 00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:58,770 If you multiply this with the 5€, 590 00:44:58,770 --> 00:45:09,520 every broadband customer would lose 30€ per year. 591 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,950 This sums up – with 30 million broadband subscribers - 592 00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:24,130 to 900 million Euros per year. This is the economic damage in Germany per year. 593 00:45:24,130 --> 00:45:30,810 *applause* 594 00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:36,030 As we can assume that a large part of the buffering is caused 595 00:45:36,030 --> 00:45:39,480 by the insufficient interconnection, especially during prime-time 596 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,230 when everybody wants to watch Netflix. This is also a result 597 00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:51,240 of the restrictive peering policy of the incumbent and large cable operators 598 00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:55,440 and the ability for them to force some extra money 599 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,560 out of these double sided market power as I explained. 600 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,800 They probably would gain a few millions. I don’t have exact figures 601 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,110 but I assume it’s probably some 10..20..30 millions per year, 602 00:46:09,110 --> 00:46:15,530 they could force through this market power. 603 00:46:15,530 --> 00:46:19,930 On the other hand we have the damage of 900 Million Euro per year and I mean 604 00:46:19,930 --> 00:46:27,550 this is like a – how do you say that? – Imbalance. 605 00:46:27,550 --> 00:46:32,200 So my conclusion in democratic countries like [in] Western Europe: 606 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,320 The economic gain of a multibillion company at the expense 607 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:42,460 of the general public is commonly not tolerated. 608 00:46:42,460 --> 00:46:47,940 The next question is basically following the previous talk of Thomas: 609 00:46:47,940 --> 00:46:52,590 When will the regulators wake up and force every market participant 610 00:46:52,590 --> 00:46:58,080 to cooperative peering and interconnection because the end user is suffering, 611 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,930 the public is suffering. Zero Settlement peering – as I explained - 612 00:47:01,930 --> 00:47:06,770 is rather common. Of course the incumbent, 613 00:47:06,770 --> 00:47:11,550 the Deutsche Telekom lobbyists would tell otherwise, this is clear. 614 00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:16,290 The unbalanced traffic should no longer be used to refuse peering; 615 00:47:16,290 --> 00:47:20,730 and also disputes about the interconnection should be resolved 616 00:47:20,730 --> 00:47:28,300 rather quick. My case against Swisscom is taking years already 617 00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:31,840 and still no end… no light at the end of the tunnel. 618 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,250 Then, last but not least we should have broadband providers… 619 00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:48,490 must be committed to the interests of their own end user customer base. 620 00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:54,510 As I said, Telekom managed to get paid twice because of their market power; 621 00:47:54,510 --> 00:47:59,040 and other Telecoms, such as Telecom Hungaria or Swisscom, 622 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:04,590 they use Deutsche Telekom and their market power as a leverage 623 00:48:04,590 --> 00:48:09,060 to force their also restrictive peering policy; 624 00:48:09,060 --> 00:48:12,820 and the regulators so far don’t do much. I quote here Marc Furrer, 625 00:48:12,820 --> 00:48:18,010 this is the chief of ComCom Switzerland: “Nur ein fauler Regulator 626 00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:21,740 ist ein guter Regulator”. *laughing* 627 00:48:21,740 --> 00:48:31,710 Thank you! Questions? *applause* 628 00:48:31,710 --> 00:48:37,280 Herald: Okay, thank you Fredy; and let’s have Thomas back up on stage 629 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,850 and we’re gonna take questions, please. 630 00:48:40,850 --> 00:48:44,470 There is actually more than the [number of] mics I said before, 631 00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:49,490 there is two right up on the top and there is three in each aisle. 632 00:48:49,490 --> 00:48:53,840 So if you please line up if you have any questions to ask; and please 633 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,250 speak into the mic, we need your questions on tape, 634 00:48:58,250 --> 00:49:03,120 and those who are leaving now: Do it silently please. 635 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:10,300 Okay, first question, over there! 636 00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:14,940 Question: I have a question for Thomas: From your talk it sounds 637 00:49:14,940 --> 00:49:18,600 like you did a lot of work. Can you tell us a little bit about the budgeting, 638 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,200 that goes into having a team like that? 639 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,410 T: Yeah, so, SaveTheInternet is a coalition of 12 NGOs 640 00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:31,910 which have all their independent budget. There is no fixed budget 641 00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:35,940 for the work that we have been doing as a whole. 642 00:49:35,940 --> 00:49:39,711 All of them have transparency reports. So I can not really speak 643 00:49:39,711 --> 00:49:46,850 for the budget of EDRI or accessnow. The organization where I am based in Austria 644 00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:52,230 got a grant from the media democracy foundation from 10.000€; 645 00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:57,370 and money from Netflix, 10.000€ also. 646 00:49:57,370 --> 00:50:00,701 And we used both for development and paying for the faxes. Because 647 00:50:00,701 --> 00:50:04,940 in the second round of the fax tool the provider that it was referring to 648 00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:08,210 was no longer paying. 649 00:50:08,210 --> 00:50:13,780 Otherwise the funding in general about Digital Rights in Europe is awfully low. 650 00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:18,470 So if you compare it to the U.S. where you had double-digit millions 651 00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:23,619 going into the lobbying it is ridiculous what resources we have 652 00:50:23,619 --> 00:50:28,800 here in Europe; and we are thinking about making a donation tool 653 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,070 for the new SaveTheInternet; but again, that’s complicated 654 00:50:33,070 --> 00:50:37,740 because you have 12 NGOs with very different activity scales. 655 00:50:37,740 --> 00:50:41,280 Like some of them do a lot, others not so much. So how would you divide 656 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,180 the money? These are unresolved questions, that we are working on right now. 657 00:50:45,180 --> 00:50:48,700 If you wanna support us with independent funding, then just donate to 658 00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:55,480 the individual organizations. EDRI, Initiative für Netzfreiheit, 659 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,890 are probably the ones I would mention most, because they have done 660 00:50:58,890 --> 00:51:02,540 most of the work; accessnow as well, but they generally have a lot of funding 661 00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:04,700 from the U.S., so I don’t think they need it that much. 662 00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:08,282 Q: But to summarize, I saw a picture of your team. I saw all the work you did. 663 00:51:08,282 --> 00:51:13,650 You did that for 20.000€? T: No. I never got a Cent. 664 00:51:13,650 --> 00:51:17,310 I was paid by EDRI for 4 months when I was working in Brussels 665 00:51:17,310 --> 00:51:20,880 within BEREC for the first reading; but otherwise this was mostly free time. 666 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,770 I got my expenses covered for travel but other than that I am doing this 667 00:51:25,770 --> 00:51:36,530 in my spare time. Also now I’m employed… *applause* 668 00:51:36,530 --> 00:51:39,410 …I work for Data Protection NGOs, so they are allowing me to do 669 00:51:39,410 --> 00:51:43,260 a lot of my stuff also for Net Neutrality. 670 00:51:43,260 --> 00:51:48,690 Herald: We’re all elephants. We do it for peanuts. Okay, No.1 go ahead! 671 00:51:48,690 --> 00:51:55,200 Mic 1: Yeah, hello! Hi Thomas, thanks a lot for your work, that’s great. 672 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,450 I have a question about the involvement of the business, the angels 673 00:51:59,450 --> 00:52:03,200 and the companies: What is the reason, what do you think 674 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:08,660 why they came so late into this discussion in Germany. 675 00:52:08,660 --> 00:52:12,800 What probably can we do to change this in the future because 676 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:17,630 I think that’s a… they are great allies in this fight. 677 00:52:17,630 --> 00:52:21,430 Thomas: That’s… you’re asking exactly the right question. 678 00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:25,810 Sadly, in Europe you have no organized voice for startups 679 00:52:25,810 --> 00:52:30,250 or for SMEs when it comes to Digital Rights issues; 680 00:52:30,250 --> 00:52:33,740 and you would have to work with them to get them involved in the debate. 681 00:52:33,740 --> 00:52:37,480 They were really late to the party and then, again, mostly activated 682 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:44,230 through U.S. networks. So the connection between the civil rights scene here 683 00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:48,920 and the business scene, particularly the one which is organized in Brussels 684 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,619 with European umbrellas is very weak. So everything you can do there 685 00:52:53,619 --> 00:52:57,850 to strengthen this connection would be great. 686 00:52:57,850 --> 00:53:00,940 But I don’t have those business contacts. I got a few people involved 687 00:53:00,940 --> 00:53:04,360 in the first reading stuff but we’ll definitely need more people that 688 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,840 act as multipliers to get more companies involved, particularly now 689 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,280 when we enter into a new phase with the BEREC guidelines. 690 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,530 We no longer need the loud arguments of… 691 00:53:17,530 --> 00:53:21,830 …of many people, we need more the arguments from the business side, 692 00:53:21,830 --> 00:53:26,190 from the universities, from those people who run networks. These arguments are 693 00:53:26,190 --> 00:53:29,610 better suited to make a difference with the regulators. 694 00:53:29,610 --> 00:53:35,990 Fredy: And to add: Don’t underestimate the influence of the lobbies, 695 00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:40,680 of the big names, the Telecoms and the liberty globals… 696 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:46,190 They have a lot of money and they try to influence the politicians 697 00:53:46,190 --> 00:53:51,490 as good as they can. They do a good job from their perspective. 698 00:53:51,490 --> 00:53:57,760 Thomas: You can be sure that the Telecoms will have people for all 28 regulators, 699 00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,520 now continuously lobbying for an upcoming 9 months. The question is: 700 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,610 Who is in our team? 701 00:54:05,610 --> 00:54:11,230 Herald: OK. Thank you. Is there a question from the internet? While we’re at it? 702 00:54:11,230 --> 00:54:16,250 Signal Angel: Yes, there is a question, it is: Whether peering providers 703 00:54:16,250 --> 00:54:19,440 should differentiate between virtual private network traffic 704 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,010 and public traffic; and where is the line 705 00:54:23,010 --> 00:54:30,730 between internal network and the public internet? 706 00:54:30,730 --> 00:54:36,560 Fredy: What should I say… this is difficult question, I mean… Basically, 707 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:43,350 if you over-commit your backbone then there is always plenty of traffic… 708 00:54:43,350 --> 00:54:49,710 or plenty of capacity. So there is… there shouldn’t be any differentiation. 709 00:54:49,710 --> 00:54:56,710 Networks should provide enough capacity and then we’re good. 710 00:54:56,710 --> 00:55:00,700 A common argument from the big names: 711 00:55:00,700 --> 00:55:06,730 “Oh we are investing millions and millions and millions in broadband expansion”, 712 00:55:06,730 --> 00:55:12,350 but unfortunately they stop investing right at the end of their own backbone 713 00:55:12,350 --> 00:55:17,420 so they don’t invest any money beyond their little percentage 714 00:55:17,420 --> 00:55:24,240 of the total investment for their interconnections. 715 00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:28,730 Herald: Okay, there is another question at No.1? 716 00:55:28,730 --> 00:55:33,220 Mic 1: I have a question about buffering: So the most of the content in the web is 717 00:55:33,220 --> 00:55:38,140 delivered over TCP/IP and… will changing the media 718 00:55:38,140 --> 00:55:43,450 to something like UDP which has lower overhead over TCP/IP; 719 00:55:43,450 --> 00:55:47,020 will that change the situation? 720 00:55:47,020 --> 00:55:48,400 Fredy: Not really. Mic 1: No? 721 00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:53,960 Fredy: No. It won’t help. I mean packet loss is packet loss 722 00:55:53,960 --> 00:56:01,530 regardless whether it’s TCP or it’s UDP. 723 00:56:01,530 --> 00:56:07,220 Herald: OK, that was a short answer. Next question please. Please talk into the mic. 724 00:56:07,220 --> 00:56:10,630 Mic: So when I came here, this year, I had the impression that 725 00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:15,030 at digital subscriber line connections 726 00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:19,630 not only bandwidth is bad but also the 727 00:56:19,630 --> 00:56:23,900 ping [time] gets up way high. Of course, I mean, 728 00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:28,250 at home I have Fiber7 nowadays so I just thought I got spoiled 729 00:56:28,250 --> 00:56:33,380 by fiber connections but I noticed that ping times went up 730 00:56:33,380 --> 00:56:38,490 from, well, couple of years ago 60-80 ms 731 00:56:38,490 --> 00:56:42,490 from sites in your neighborhood more or less 732 00:56:42,490 --> 00:56:48,620 to nowadays 80-160ms. Where is the problem there? 733 00:56:48,620 --> 00:56:52,310 Fredy: Well, the latency is directly related 734 00:56:52,310 --> 00:56:56,160 if the provider is not delivering enough bandwidth, 735 00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:03,210 then ping goes up that’s a normal behaviour of TCP. 736 00:57:03,210 --> 00:57:08,240 Mic: So the problem is also at the interconnection sites? 737 00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:13,360 Fredy: Probably yes, most likely, you can find out if you do traceroute. 738 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:19,220 Then you see where… well, there is a long presentation 739 00:57:19,220 --> 00:57:24,660 how to interpret traceroute properly. If you look for “Nanog traceroute” 740 00:57:24,660 --> 00:57:31,470 you should find this lecture. But that would probably give some indication. 741 00:57:31,470 --> 00:57:35,180 Mic: Alright, thank you. Herald: Thank you. Next question from 742 00:57:35,180 --> 00:57:39,070 the internet, just in between and then we’ll go back, go ahead. 743 00:57:39,070 --> 00:57:43,220 Signal Angel: “Is Netflix a gated community by itself?” and 744 00:57:43,220 --> 00:57:46,520 “Are you sure that their interest will align with the movement 745 00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:52,050 of net neutrality in the long run?” 746 00:57:52,050 --> 00:57:56,590 Fredy: We should differentiate between Netflix content 747 00:57:56,590 --> 00:58:02,180 and Netflix interconnections. So for the content I probably would say: 748 00:58:02,180 --> 00:58:07,540 Yes. But I am not the expert. This would be then layer 7 in the OSI model. 749 00:58:07,540 --> 00:58:11,840 I am talking here on layer 3, this is content agnostic. 750 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:17,070 Netflix, they are one of the good guys because they really help 751 00:58:17,070 --> 00:58:24,170 to deliver the packets. I know them personally a few fellows 752 00:58:24,170 --> 00:58:30,000 from the peering community. They are the good guys, definitely. 753 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,390 Thomas: Just also to answer this question for the European debate, 754 00:58:33,390 --> 00:58:37,400 Netflix was one of the good guys in the U.S. and they also supported of course 755 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,119 the European movement. But again, they are so big that I wouldn’t really trust them 756 00:58:41,119 --> 00:58:45,410 as an ally because they could also pay, they could also survive 757 00:58:45,410 --> 00:58:50,900 in a double sided market and for them in the growing emerging markets 758 00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:55,869 like Europe where they just have started it’s probably risky to allow for this 759 00:58:55,869 --> 00:59:02,030 new type of anti net neutrality business models; but in the consumer side 760 00:59:02,030 --> 00:59:06,530 where net neutrality is seen as an end user issue I think so far their interests 761 00:59:06,530 --> 00:59:10,960 mostly align. On interconnection they have their own interests, of course. 762 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,820 Fredy: So I can say: Netflix is definitely paying Deutsche Telekom, 763 00:59:14,820 --> 00:59:18,790 otherwise no single Deutsche Telekom user 764 00:59:18,790 --> 00:59:24,050 would be able to watch any movie on Netflix! So! For sure! 765 00:59:24,050 --> 00:59:27,220 Herald: Okay, we are short for time so please, last 2 questions. 766 00:59:27,220 --> 00:59:31,001 One, no.2 first. Keep it short, please. Talk into the mic. 767 00:59:31,001 --> 00:59:35,800 Mic 2: Regarding the first talk: What is the… do you have an explanation for 768 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:41,600 the behaviour of the European Commission in behave of the net neutrality debate? 769 00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,560 I especially think of the behaviour of Guenther Oettinger 770 00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:51,780 who repeatedly said his ridiculous lie 771 00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:57,340 of “net neutrality kills” and he repeated it again and again 772 00:59:57,340 --> 01:00:03,920 even if there was no reason behind it. And do you 773 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:08,560 have an explanation for this behavior of the Commission, and Juncker and this? 774 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,090 Thomas: For that argument, we had this great YouTube video “net neutrality kills”. 775 01:00:12,090 --> 01:00:16,040 If you search it you will find it or “Netzneutralität tötet” in German. 776 01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,820 That deconstructs this argument of Oettinger. But in general, and you can 777 01:00:19,820 --> 01:00:23,910 go back to the previous commissioner Neelie Kroes that I showed. 778 01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:26,930 Our sole suspicion is that the deal was that the telecom industry 779 01:00:26,930 --> 01:00:30,200 has to give up a little bit of their profits when it comes to Roaming, 780 01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,940 but on the other side they gain a lot of future profits on the abolishment 781 01:00:33,940 --> 01:00:37,480 of net neutrality. And so it was like: “Okay, we need a populist argument”, 782 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,860 Neelie Kroes also needs a quick win at the end of her career. 783 01:00:41,860 --> 01:00:46,960 And this was again like you take a little bit there and put it there 784 01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,560 for the Telecoms industry. And Oettinger is a big industrial favour guy, 785 01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,930 he is always for big business. 786 01:00:54,930 --> 01:00:58,560 Herald: Okay, short for time, last question, No.1. 787 01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:03,130 Mic 1: Hi, so what strategy should an ISP use when their capacity on their backbones 788 01:01:03,130 --> 01:01:09,270 is fully loaded? Like first-in-first-out or what is your idea about that, because 789 01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:13,190 the capacity is limited, so when there is so much traffic that everything is stuck. 790 01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:15,380 Fredy: Upgrade! Thomas: Yes, invest in the network! 791 01:01:15,380 --> 01:01:21,580 Fredy: I mean, sorry, a 10G port is now some 3000€ including optic and cross 792 01:01:21,580 --> 01:01:27,290 connect. It’s not that much. Upgrade! 793 01:01:27,290 --> 01:01:30,240 Herald: Okay, thank you! Let’s have a hand! 794 01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,420 *applause* 795 01:01:32,420 --> 01:01:38,250 Fredy Kuenzler, Thomas Lohninger. Thank you very much! And goodbye. 796 01:01:38,250 --> 01:01:43,920 *postroll music* 797 01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:49,261 *Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2016. Join and help us!*