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[Music]
uh this is about techn fixes techn fixes
and techn fixes beware is being
presented to you by R and Rina and I
give the stage to
you
um
hi uh and Welcome to our talk techn
fixes beware Tech fictions as
replacement for social and political
change we are delighted that you're all
here with us um I'm R I'm a policy
advisor at friend of the earth one of
the biggest environmental noos in
Germany also known as bndd and I'm an
economist climate activist and also a
proud member of the bits and boy Network
and I'm here here with rer hello my name
is Riner um I'm co-chair of the um Forum
computer Professionals for peace and
Society responsibility also happy member
of the bits and bumer network I have a
background in computer science and
philosophy and my working areas of
sustainability and also Tech narratives
which which brings us directly to the
point um we both work at the
intersection of sustainability and
Technology and in our political work we
noticed that there's something wrong
about the way we talk about tech in the
context of global crisis especially es
especially environmental and human
rights issues um so this talk is based
on our daily experience with the tech
discourse in politics and science um and
just firstly of course there's a lot of
potential in technology and
Innovation but many times Tech is
overestimated as a a solution for social
and environmental
challenges um these misconceptions might
seem
random but we and other smart colleagues
and activists found patterns over time
in the misuse of tech narratives so this
talk is a working definition um with the
goal to help you spot techn fixes and
not be distracted from real
solutions so what will we do will we do
now first we'll talk about the back
ground and the problem of technology for
sustainability uh talk about patterns of
misleading Tech promises uh then give
some examples and analyze them and then
we want to explain what we think are
reasons for this um and then conclude
with talking about actual Solutions or
actual usages um and conclude with a
little mental tool for spotting techn
fixes okay so what is the problem we're
trying to fix um um I'm sure in the past
Years everybody of you heard about the
mult multiple crises often referring to
different difficult situations in World
politics and one thing seems to be sure
we Face multiple environmental social
and political challenges that are
closely
interconnected uh in my work and also in
rina's work at bitson BMA um the most
impending crisis of course is the
climate cat climate catastrophe um we
just experiened the hottest July and the
wetest December ever recorded the
European climate agency even states that
in July uh it hasn't been this warm in
July for the last
120,000 years um and that shows us or
that emphasizes that we are on a very
good path to a climate catastrophe our
current warming is 1.1 de um and we're
on a good path to reach 3° and and
that's really
bad because if we surpass two or 1.5°
warming we will reach so-called tipping
points which are irreversible changes in
the earth system um and this can lead to
many different
incidences um one of the worst things
are extreme weather incidences like
floods as we saw them in Pakistan in two
2022 or droughts as we experienced in
Kenya this year of forest fires like in
rodos or
Maui um but the climate crisis is also
intertwined closely with other
ecological crisis like the rapid
biodiversity loss or a crisis of
resources like water metals or soil
which leads to conflict and exploitation
of Nature and of course um social crisis
are also on the rise each year there are
less countries with de with Democratic
systems and we experience two financial
crisis in the past 15 years and with the
pandemic and the current Global
conflicts inequality is rising faster
than ever before so this seems bad and
hopeless but what if technology could
save
us so what if tech could save us exactly
could all those crisises be solved um
usually we hear about Technical
Innovations and also new companies
trying this and hopefully succeeding so
we talk about new technologies and new
toys but also new ways of working and
dealing with this at least this is what
investors innovators technologists uh
also billionaires and also political
actors like political parties tell us
and um quickly we often talk about
blockchain AI carbon capture and storage
or carbon air
capture we will now look into this more
closely into the promises but before we
start we just want to briefly outline
some core Notions uh two core Notions to
know what's the foundation for our talk
how we operate um in this talk now first
talking about fictions well we are not
all experts well maybe we are but uh
Society wide not all experts in all
areas also not technology so we need
stories about the abilities and
narratives about the functioning and
fictions are special stories with
imaginary or unreal elements so now the
question is are the tech abilities can
they unfold in the present or in the
future or are they only promises so if
they have a large imaginary part you
could say they are it's pretty sure we
talk about techn fixes and if the
imaginary part or the unreal part is
rather small we talk about at least
approaches solution is a problematic
term uh so the question is is an
approach a solution for a given problem
at the same time uh the second notion is
sustainability which is a goal while
technology usually is a tool not only
it's complex uh sustainability as a goal
and just to to briefly outline it is the
ability to fulfill one's needs not once
once but needs uh without impeding uh
the present and future Generations
ability to solve them so this implies
inter and intragenerational uh justice
as well as Global Justice and as we
heard from R um change is necessary uh
we live in a definitely crazily unstain
unsustainable world and with
unsustainable Lifestyles not
individually but collectively um and
this is just to stress it not only
nature protection this is a question of
our own
livelihoods okay let's get
to uh the misleading Tech promises in
the sustainability discourse as ra
mentioned we talk about uh we recognize
there are some patterns how technology
is being talked about and we found that
two types and both are fictions both are
somehow distinct uh both distract uh but
they distract in different ways and
that's why it's important to make this
distinction we have we just call them
type A which is um a discussing D
fictional technology when there's real
technology available for the same
problem even commercially available so
we talk about unsuitable technology when
there is suitable technology type B uh
type B is discussing fictional
technology when the problem in itself is
not a technically solvable problem when
this is a political or social problem so
this is an another way of misleading uh
Tech discourse and we want to talk about
this now more
concretely coming to type a of the tech
discourse
misuse just to give one give two
examples to make this clear why we are
talking about this first example is
automated driving and or electric cars
in uh inner cities there's a promise of
fossil less uh Mobility with fossiles
engines um less emissions
and also more space on the city on the
city streets however and the technology
of course is electrical engines um then
computers on Wheels you could say uh
with a lot of cameras and sensors uh and
automatic navigation and that's kind of
what we what we're heading for if we
want to have automated driving um or
electric cars however in reality we have
many many problems and fundamental
problems the autonomy is a big problem
if we've SE as we've seen with a lot of
um chaotic accidents or near accidents
in inner cities this is exactly the the
the focus here um usually the city
environment is very chaotic uh there's a
lot of people a lot of then weather
comes in you know construction sites all
those things so in order this to work we
have would have to entirely rebuild uh
the the city um streets and there's of
course also errors in those systems um
sometimes the cones create errors for
you you who have read about it blocking
streets and in the end as shown in the
in the picture the size of an electric
car usually is the same size of an of a
fossil driven car uh fueled car so in
this sense it's not much of a
solution um however what could be a
solution we in type A well we can of
course talk about public transport we
can talk about uh multimodal Mobility um
we can talk about some kinds of
architectures of cities of short ways um
so if we're looking to have a vehicle
where you don't have to drive yourself
of course you go to the next bus stop so
this is a driverless from this the point
of view but the question is now we're
talking about the discourse misuse who
profits from this kind of narrative of
course the big corporations who build
and do research on this kind of uh on
this kind of topics like Google Uber
Tesla and also old carmers uh who jump
onto this train um quite
late
okay the second case is nuclear power or
fusion power what is the promise well
it's the promise of unlimited clean and
free energy for everyone the technology
is quite simple um well nuclear power uh
comes from a splitting large atoms
fusion power comes from merging really
small atoms um and there we go but
however in reality it is a really really
expensive technology both are really
expensive ter Technologies both can only
be done in a in a centralized uh in a
centralized ways um the fuel usually
comes from dictatorships but okay and uh
in terms of fusion they're not even
commercially available for the next uh
decades so the centralized aspect um um
is like we would like to p a stress
here so what could be a solution well a
solution for uh unlimited clean energy
well of course wind water renewable
energy solar power some call it remote
fusion um this is already commercially
available and it could be employed right
now but who profits from talking about
nuclear power and fusion of course the
big uh energy corporations because they
know they are the only ones who can
employ this kind of Technology um and
also political actors who really enjoy
delaying the discussion about actual
transitions so we have Placebo changes
for a change of placebos kind of and um
the delay of
politics um yeah so this is this is the
aspect of nuclear power and fusion now
we get to the type B um um Tech
discourse misuses
by um the other type we identified in
our political work is the proposal of
tech as a distraction from necessary
societal and political change we also
brought two examples one is GMOs and the
other one is AI for environmental issues
um GM o are a very old example that a
lot of you may be familiar with um and
the basic idea is Tech as a solution to
world hunger specifically higher
productivity through the usage of
genetically modified seeds and
herbicides and
pesticides um the idea is we end world
hunger and improve crop yields um and if
you want to understand how it works glat
for example is a good uh good example
it's a so-called total herbicide which
means it kills all plants except certain
genetically modified varieties these
genetic mod genetically modified
varieties and the corresponding
herbicides are provided by just a few
company worldwide mainly Monsanto baa da
dupon Dao and
senta they have long names because they
all merged in the past years um these
three companies own over 60% of the seed
Market um and the reality the reality is
uh the discussion around GMOs Dat Back
even before I was born in 1994 and by
now we know that it did not in fact end
world hunger although 15 to 20% of the
global
agriculture um is provided by GMOs and
although the usage of genetically
modified plants and herbicides improves
crop yields in the short short term in
the long term it has severely negative
impact biodiversity it erodes soils and
soils are no longer usable for the
cultivation of other varieties for a
long time um also studies show that uh
the usage severely impacts insect
populations and the
W suggests that glos might cause cancer
and local communities especially in the
global Sal repeatedly report increasing
Health complications uh in communities
that are in close contact with with
herbicides um and furthermore
furthermore we have a lot of dependency
on these uh big seed and herbicide
providers so what would be a good
solution the first thing to state is
hunger is not a technical problem
because food is not scars and has never
been there is enough food to feed the
world the problem is distribution access
to land and heavily leveraged food
markets and large scale export oriented
farming
um and the majority of the world is
still fed by small farmers and
subsistence subsistence farming and
so-called local food webs which is also
more eco-friendly and sustainable than
industrial farming but does not offer uh
as big of financial profits so who
profits from GMOs well the biggest AGR
business companies of course um and the
second example uh for Tech as a
distraction is something we all read
about more than enough this year which
is AI um beforehand of this talk I
looked up some topics we work on at at
FR of the Earth for example circular
economy uh oceans or rainforests and
right now you will find a policy paper
or an article how all these issues can
be solved by artificial intelligence and
if we believe Silicon Valley or the
liberal party in Germany AI can save the
rainforest free the oceans from plastic
and recycle almost
everything uh and this narrative around
AI is a very typical technofix um
because it implies that all complicated
problems that politicians NOS Civil
Society or people like you are working
on uh for years can be solved by large
language models in a few months um and I
don't I don't think I have to explain to
you that AI can't recycle anything but
data or colle collect Plastics from the
oceans and in the best case scenario AI
provides information and new knowledge
by processing for example environmental
data and it has been used in this way
for a long time um but what the
narrative like AI can free the oceans
from plastic do is distracting us from
complicated policy measures like
regulating the Plastic industry or
switch to reusable um to reusable
packaging instead of using single-use
plastic um but this way time and
resources are invested in Ai and climate
Solutions uh and in the best case we
gain information but uh but maybe
without implementing as any measures and
it's very important to State our main
problem in environmentalism is not the
lack of
knowledge um we need good science and
but for the most of the environmental
policy we know everything we need to
know um and it's impressive to measure
for example how pollution increases
Glaciers are melting or rainforests are
lost but this is not news infog
Gathering especially with AI without
action is a very typical
technofix
um and of course there are many other
examples of big solutions for social
environmental problems with the same
patterns for example the implementation
of cryptocurrencies instead of
transforming or regulating our current
Financial system or is CCS as the talk
by my colleagues um explained before H
but now the question is why do these
techn fixes work so
well yes uh why yeah why do does the
distraction work so well well we see um
two underlying causes or two underlying
reasons and those two reasons are first
the ones who spread the uh those kind of
narra narratives uh they have the main
motivation of staying in power they
usually the incumbents um in those given
markets but also in the in the given
intellectual space um there are the olop
Pooles in the part markets um but this
is also true for people in the political
space who just want to stay where they
are when they're in a powerful
position um the second one uh is a wrong
understanding of Technology of society
and the of the context so one could say
the first one is is the cause of evil
and the second one is incompetence maybe
the The Duality uh is the common Duality
and um maybe it's important to say that
maybe the the second one might not be
Mal meaning but it support often the
first one and the other way around as
well so this is more an analytical
distinction but they often go times go
hand in hand um now um R will explain
the first of those reasons and I will
explain the second
afterwards um a recurring theme that we
found is that so-called techn fixes are
proposed by companies that already yield
a lot of Market power we call that uh
new tech old players and we have again
to example um AGR business and Mining
Supply chains um because if we look
closer at the proposed Solutions
especially regarding digital Tech many
players that drive Innovation or rule
Supply chains have been around for
decades um a good example is again
digital agriculture at first glance
plants might see might not seem very
technical but Agri business corporations
have always been tech companies the
development of GMOs pesticides and
fertilizers uh were always technological
processes um and with the rise of
digital agriculture Tech these companies
seek to maintain their monopolies by
buying Tech startups and implementing
digital Tech into their business Fields
um our friends at the ETC group even
state every sector of the industrial
food chain is in the process to
transforming into a digital
Enterprise and so drones or robots or
new GMO might seem very futuristic but
in the end they are provided by old
companies like B Monsanto or BF who want
to keep their Monopoly on the food
chain similarly um the prod C of digital
Hardware can be considered fairly new
maybe uh like apple Microsoft sap um but
the supply and extraction of the
materials that are needed for the
production such as Metals minerals or
other resources is operated by the same
companies and Supply chains that already
provided these materials for example the
car or the chemical industry for almost
centuries um and the resources are
mostly extracted from the global South
to be used in the global North and these
Supply chains have been established
since colonial times and are maintained
by trade agreements and international
institutions until today um our
colleagues at for example attack have
very good work on this um but for
example the extraction of cobalt from
the Democratic Republic of Congo or the
mining of leum in Latin America is not
very new also the stories of human
rights violations or ecological harms
are not new but the production of tech
itself intensified the demand for these
resources and here we can see again the
tech might be new but the supply chain
is built on very old Power
structures yeah oh
God yeah and uh the second thing we see
is
um the promise of tech actors to be
different but behaving in the same way
established companies do uh we call that
new players all systems um a great
example of course is Elon Musk and Tesla
um maybe this is a good uh moment to
mention the great work of the journalist
Paris marks um we can only recommend his
book and his podcast if you're
interested in these uh themes and of
course we all know that Elon Musk is not
like the other billionaires um and he
wants to be uh humans to be a
multiplanetary species and fight uh
important Wars Against anti-white Racism
on
Twitter um and this might seem funny but
in the past two decades he has been a
very good
example um for this type of a Visionary
Tech billionaire who is respected by
politics and journalists for Innovations
and with Tesla for example he greatly
profited from this idea of
electrification as a climate solution um
and the idea for electric cars have also
been around for a very long time the
last German Emperor even owned electric
cars um but Tesla defined in our time
that these cars need to fulfill an image
of a very masculine mob Mobility maybe
which means being heavy and big um and
the business model is basically offering
an electric car that feels like it's it
is fuel by gasoline um and this of
course make Teslas the opposite of
sustainable um they require large
batteries and these require a lot of
resources and have a high demand for
energy to move around and the electric
cars that would really support the
ecological transformation would in the
best case be buses for example but in
any case would be very smaller and fewer
and not the primary primary source of
Mobility for
people um and another very good example
for tech companies um that are new
players but work in Old systems uh
amadon and leando for example both own
like shiny headquarters in Berlin and
Hamburg for example the Amazon Tower uh
and promote uh ideals of new work and
Innovation um but still have business
models that are based on very classic
models of of exploitation of cheap labor
for profits um I think it's very telling
that in 2022 Jeff basos earned around $8
million per hour while employees in
delivery in Germany for Amazon earned
around 15 an hour so although technology
and emerging companies seem futuristic
and new um in many cases the technology
only renews the power of old players or
the new new emerging players are built
on the same destructive systems as the
old
ones and now we come to the second of
the two reasons we found um which we
described wrong understanding of tech
and Society the incompetence argument
maybe one could
say well often times uh technology does
not deliver on on its promises let's for
example uh say the Revolutionary um uh
Endeavor for let's say uh
cryptocurrencies because quite often
there are inappropriate concepts of the
technology and of the society and of the
context underlying so one could say um
there are two kinds and their interest
two types and they're intertwined
somehow um so the first one is the
understanding of the functionality of
the technology itself we all heard the
talk about immutability and the
distribution and the trustless and when
we once we look at the techn techology
it is of course mutable and it is very
little distributed and you need a lot of
trust um for this to work the same is
true for the AI uh Technologies where
often times um journalists and sometimes
even the technological proponents uh
proponents don't even understand how
it's really working and just dig into
the promises same was true let's say 10
years ago about uh Big Data um and the
Wonders that can be done with uh with
the new kinds of uh new kinds of
data the second aspect is a reduced
understanding of humans and society as
it works um common misunderstandings
there are humans are just just computers
you know they mainly work like this the
brain is nothing else than a processing
like in data processing unit but uh just
in meat um however if we look at the uh
all kinds of social sciences uh this is
exactly not how it works
um at the same time there's a lot of
belief of society mainly beliefs of
transactions um meaning uh that all is
basically Game Theory and so all human
interactions can be framed like this um
and trust between humans is uh it's a
bug and of course when I have this kind
of assum assumption and I see human
beings and Bane as mainly economic
interactors then I can apply technology
that models exactly this and that is
being able to model exactly this however
that's why often times this goes wrong
because Society doesn't work like this
and human interaction also doesn't work
like this so in the end this kind of
application goes wrong does not help
with the solution uh does not help with
the problems we've been proposing and
often times it also creates a lot of
harm not only because it takes up
discussion space and also funding but
because people who invested that could
be money could be time could be hope
into this um of course uh a lose um and
of course often times to the bigger
players in the field so the framework
conditions and the embedding of the
technology itself the social embedding
is is key in this
misunderstanding however there are a lot
of Solutions in context in the context
what have we have talked about and of
course we don't want Al don't only want
to talk about tech fix fix techn fixes
and how everything is bad but we have a
lot of solutions and this I think is a
really good news especially for our uh
chaos family here um we have a lot of
well-known working Tech and a lot of it
is low Tech that can be maintained
understood uh shared and learned
including all the the wonders of skill
sharing and free software and all such
things but this of course has to be
implemented um but also apart from the
digital aspects I mean we all have heard
the terms of a bike City or public trans
transport as mentioned before of the 20h
hour week of smaller cars um but also
small scale agriculture which actually
works uh or nonprofit Food Markets uh
down to plant-based food uh or renewable
energy uh as we all know that um uh for
example solar power is not a very
complex technology hopefully uh luckily
anymore so what's necessary of course is
reform of markets and the econ economy
with ideas of degrowth or circular
economy which of course is very very
hard but it is necessary we cannot
refrain from doing the right thing
because other things seem easier because
they just don't work uh I think maybe
some of you might think of the person
looking for the car keys under the light
although having lost them somewhere else
but it's easier to search under the
light um so we have to talk about
financial system
democratization and all those things are
hard um
um uh to do and the key aspect as always
is not so much talking about the
technological implementation but also
about the social transition implied by
this so we have to talk about something
like climate money from CO2 taxes about
financial support for econom the
economically uh weak uh within Society
but also about increasing taxes I mean
if we know that the average like rich
person's tax is like 1% I guess all of
us if we look at our pay slip this is
this is uh actually a narrative um um
that shows how much uh how much
inequality there is and of course the
transition will need some effort um but
this can all be done as as we say
there's a lot of the technological uh uh
Solutions already there and we have to
focus more on Collective Social Security
than into individual safety and the
question is always in at around the
corner what is it that makes us happy of
course we should we like to Tinker with
technology hack stuff build stuff but
equally important it is the time we
spend with with each other and the time
learning understanding something and
sharing that we've just understood
something so sharing this with our with
the um chaos family with our community
uh with our friends and partners so
there is such thing as social wealth
this is something to strive for or time
wealth that there's enough time to do
all those things and also time to for
regeneration uh and for um taking care
of each other uh in darker times so we
can later on hack together again so
saying this the sustainable future is a
great
future to
conclude so we hope we made a case a
briefcase although uh that techn techn
fixes distract our minds and slow down
the necessary change and as maybe um
promised this is like a little cognitive
tool to to spot a technno fix or to ask
the right questions some of you might
know the uh the viten bomb test it's
kind of the analogous to the touring
test maybe look it up if you're
interested the questions we would ask to
propose to spot a technofix is who
proposes it what is the supply chain
what are the actors who are not in the
front but in the back so follow where
the things come from and where the parts
come from literally but also
symbolically but also what is the def of
the problem so make people who suggest a
certain uh a certain solution what can
you say a little bit more what the
problem is you try to fix before you
start um fountaining the solution you
have um or maybe explain a little bit
more or talk about the the societal
background the context and also the
social embedding of it because always
when we Design Technology we design
social practice and this is key so if
someone proposes a certain technological
solution but cannot answer how this
would be embedded in existing practices
or how new practices could look like I
mean there's um good ideas everywhere
then this is already an indicator so uh
we would like to conclude with uh like
the call let's talk about usable
technology and apply it uh we have to
unlock the real potential um and then
we're good for the golden
future um and those are some references
if you're curious about this come to us
later on and then thanks a lot for your
attention thank
[Applause]
[Music]
you um and of course this talk uh and
nearly all work we do in in our noos or
at activists um is a team effort this
includes the bits and BMA crew of course
our colleagues uh incredible activists
many individual researchers and of
course the Angels here the content team
and the vog so Applause for them thank
you thank you R and Briana so if you
have questions uh don't be afraid to
line up at the
microphones and uh or participate online
I'm having a look at this signal Angel
is there anything from the internet
nothing from the internet but from
microphone 2
please hello thank you thank you for the
talk um so maybe maybe I had a bit of
confusion but um so you would proposed
for example uh instead of electric cars
try to push buses but you know coming
from the US uh how would you solve the
issue that you're trying to propose
something that maybe the greater
population doesn't want and my thinking
was when you propose that the first
politician that tries to force that down
is going to be the first politician that
loses their job in record time so and
and you know you you talked about Tesla
as well Tesla didn't form in a vacuum
right there there's context as to how
they ended up the way they are right
nobody else was really pushing you like
You' mentioned electric cars have been
around for longer than gasoline cars
it's true but yeah I mean nobody else
has really pushed it until they they
they made it popularized so how would
you propose that actual fundamental
issue of like okay you're pushing
against what people want or what they
perceive that they want right thank
you um I can I mean I'm not a specialist
on Transportation in the US I can highly
recommend the book by Paris Marx on
transportation and Silicon Valley and I
think um
it's true that the transformation
process politically is hard but I think
uh the future of having for example
walkable cities um and good public
transportation is something that is very
attractive to a lot of people um and I
think with our talk what we want to say
is not uh necessarily this or maybe it's
not a manual what a a politician can do
tomorrow but
the way we have to look at Tech to find
real solutions and if we want to tackle
the climate crisis and if we want to do
it in a way um that um allows people to
live in community we need Concepts like
walkable cities public transport um like
we saw on the picture you had on your
slide um so and I think what what is
what the thing with Tesla is Tesla is
answering the questions how we should
transform Transportation with big
electric cars and that's not the
answer yeah and I would like to add um I
think all your points are really valid
and really important um however we
cannot mix fundamental Democratic
problems with this issues we have been
discussing here because um from my
knowledge I'm also not being an expert
on us transportation there is a lot of
support for this kind of transitioning
but the Democratic process do not does
not reflect this and this is maybe this
is a much much bigger issue and um the
the second point is we focused that's
why we focused on inner cities um of
course there are a lot of use cases
where big cars and you know all those
are actually necessary but the first
thing would be how about the inner
cities where there's a space problem
where there's a lot of uh lot of INF
infrastructure that is built around cars
and usually
um I mean especially in the US people
need cars because there's no public
transportation so it's somehow a
circular uh circular question and I
think what I've known from New York
there at least some some small plants
growing maybe pushing back cars a little
bit it is a really really heavy process
um so this is yeah but this doesn't
change to at least derive from knowing
where we should go what would be the
actual political next steps so those
things uh those levels exist at the same
time and with Tesla uh maybe one comment
as well um I would like to discuss maybe
not now but how much like from the
outcome I mean the conser the the um the
narrative space has been filled up by
this but how much did it did those
actions activities really uh pay into
solving this the problems we mentioned
because it seems like it did but I would
say in numbers in emissions in um let's
say um affordability all those questions
you know I'm I'm I'm think I would say
that the Tesla narrative takes much more
space than it actually has solved on the
ground um yeah maybe that was helpful
thank
you microphone for please be concise
we're running out of time unfortunately
okay um thank you for for your
presentation I have quite similar
question as the last one but I don't
have um as much an I don't know the word
in English sorry um let's just say how
do we get the message across um to the
conservative side or the economic
liberal side of society also some some
some um some factions of left to Center
also like yeah we need to grow hack the
um take take take
our out out of the problem like like I
mean even if they disagree we you I
think you should this talk should be
like yeah you should put put CDU members
FTP members like into the whole um and
all the seats and like so they don't can
pretend they they ignore it yeah you
want to start no you can start okay um
this is also I think a really good uh uh
really good remark
um this is maybe kind of the the mental
preparation to see where we're at and
once we talk with different people um
the question is how to how to approach
and um I mean the first step is always
uh try to not be the useful idiot I mean
you know that's that means me and us as
well like uh implicitly taking the
talking points but concretely I mean if
I talk to Christians and I say how about
protecting God's creation when I talk to
liberals how about The Liberation energy
which makes us independent from
dictatorships um you know there's I
think there's a there's there could be a
story to tell and um but I think besides
all the talk from narratives I think we
still have to remember this is a power
struggle it's it's nice to have the
narratives and uh to talk about people
but always to keep in mind this is a
power struggle we have to talk about
things but also organize and go
interaction uh get political this is
really some people cannot be convinced
because they have their vested interest
in this so this would be maybe my answer
but R you wanted to say something as
well I would say the same thing I think
I don't know if we can convince uh
people in the liberal party or in the
conservative party that
um we should invest in ideas that don't
yield as much profit um I don't think
this is a good strategy I think uh what
we know from experience and I'm not just
an historian on movements but every time
like a technology was pushed back it was
with a lot of Street effort a lot of
activism a lot of protest and when we
think about nuclear power that that
that's an achievement of a big movement
the same thing with um we talked about
GMOs and we don't use GMOs in Germany
and Europe for example and that's also a
win by a movement so um if we want to
push back
Technologies it's a fight I would say
and also if especially if we talk about
Mobility Mobility is something we do for
ourself we do for our livelihoods we do
to be close to the people we like to
transform cities and Landscapes and
that's something we have to fight for
and um I think that's why you need good
activism and that's why we need places
like this here because I mean you all
are activists for the things um that are
moved by the T right yeah and this is
also what I would like to add um sorry I
have to uh remind you yeah just one
sentence um uh some people say those
kind of Utopias this is just you know
imaginary fantasies and once you wake up
you have the hard world I think what we
all show here for the four days and then
afterwards everywhere building things
that actually do work we sit here with
thousands of people and people you know
get their water electricity internet and
on every stand there are people who
build such things so this is Utopia is
not a dream it's the it's the kind of
the the starting point for the things
that exist as parallel options for
people to choose and then even maybe the
hardcore conservative would say really
you did this and it worked and everyone
you know you had those talks and they're
all online oh okay maybe maybe there's
something to think about it's not just
you know crazy ideas or they don't have
a voice yeah
[Applause]
[Music]
maybe