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Thank you, everyone.
My name is Kate Krauss.
I am an AIDS activist from the U.S.
from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
actually.
I've been working as an AIDS advocate for
about 20 years and I've worked on
China and human rights for about 10
of them. I'm director of an organization
called the AIDS Policy Project.
I'm here to talk about what happens
when surveillance moves to large
scale political repression
surveillance in China right now.
It's like looking into a crystal ball
and seeing what might happen in
five years to everybody else.
The people who know the details of
China's program are either
spying themselves
or risk harm if they talk about it.
It's interesting to note that if you want
to get a computer science degree in
China, you have to join the People's
Liberation Army.
I'm not a technical person,
but I want to share with you what I have
learned about these ID cards and how
they're being used.
This information is not comprehensive.
There are a lot of gaps, and I'm
hoping that some people, even in this
audience or online, maybe may
be able to help fill in those gaps.
China is a country with 4000
years of history.
It's an amazing place.
It's got incredible history,
incredible culture.
There's a lot to love about China, and
we're not going to talk about really any
of the good stuff today.
There are people.
Also, that
there are people who say that since
the Snowden revelations, they feel that
they're living in science fiction
like Minority Report.
But many people in China really are
a billion Chinese citizens have
government issued smart cards, ID
cards with a little radio antenna and
a microcontroller in them.
They're mandatory.
You have to carry them with you at all
times.
And China has 500
street demonstrations every single
day.
People protest when their farmland is
stolen by the government, which happens
to four million farmers every year,
and they fight back when the government
colludes with private developers and
demolishes their houses so that
developers can build new high rises on
their land and people
travel hundreds of miles to Beijing
to complain in person to public
officials, sometimes living in the
streets while they wait for their chance.
Those people are called petitioners.
Petitioners may be beaten, arrested
or thrown into jail,
according to Melissa Chan of Al Jazeera,
who got kicked out of China last year for
reporting on this.
Black jails, or basically
secret jails, are holding facilities
for petitioners who come in from the
countryside, and the only reason they're
let go, presumably, is because it's
just too expensive to permanently hold
them.
The Chinese government's biggest fear
in many people's opinion, is
instability.
It's hard to control a billion people,
actually a billion, 0.3, three something.
So China's top officials hatched
a plan in early 2011.
They decided to put all the people who
don't like them into big
groups called special populations
of dangerous persons.
Special populations get special attention
from the Ministry of Public Security.
Here we go. They include drug users and
people in recovery.
People with mental health issues like
depression and people who are being
persecuted using the mental health
system, being threatened with
being thrown into a mental hospital or
given electroshock treatment.
As we've seen in other places,
the special populations also include
human rights activists,
ethnic minorities like wiggers,
Buddhists and moving on
sex workers,
people with AIDS, lawyers who
work for human rights and lots of people
who just end up on the list by accident
and can't get their names off of it.
The special populations of dangerous
people in China are enormous.
And the government uses smart cards
to track them so out
in the world when they go to an internet
cafe, when they try to check
into a hotel or buy a train ticket
or a plane ticket.
Those smart cards follow them.
Everyone over the age of 16 is required
to carry one. And of course, when people
go online well, the government is already
looking over their shoulder, reading
everything they read and watching
everywhere they go.
But unlike some places, people don't
just get followed in China,
they get beaten, they get kidnaped, they
get picked up.
Most of the Chinese public health experts
that I know have actually been beaten by
the police at some time in their lives,
probably in the last five to 10 years.
If you can raise your hand, if
you think you would qualify as a
dangerous person in China.
In fact, that's a
lot of people.
In fact, the blacklist
in China numbers from 30
million to 50 million people,
and we know that they're being tracked
because we have government documents that
discuss them and the way that they're
being tracked, among other ways, is this
card.
I have better ones, but I'm not sure I
could fully.
Mask them in a way that was completely
unrecognizable, so this is the one that's
on like Wikipedia.
China's second generation ID card.
It's a contactless integrated circuit
smart card.
All you have to do is hold it near a
scanner and it gives up your data.
The new ones have your fingerprint in
them.
Right now, the scanner has to be just a
few inches away, but new scanners work
from a much farther distance.
The card is linked to your file in the
national database that has your political
beliefs, your HIV status, whether
or not you're a drug user or a sex
worker, your landlord's address, your
parents names any politically
troublesome nonprofit organizations
you may be associated with, and much
more because
people know because people's ethnic
groups are listed on these cards.
There's this idea that I at least read
about that it actually solidifies
ethnic ethnic groups in China because
you're labeled over and over again.
There was a pilot program
for these cards in Shenzhen, a city of 10
million people in which the data tracked
also included the person's health
insurance status and personal
reproductive history in accordance with
China's one child policy at the time.
Also in Shenzhen, the police had to
wear a GPS on their belt everywhere
they went and were also tracked by
cell phone signal, just like
everyone is now.
There's a rumor that the police can scan
the new cards.
From 10 yards away or
50 meters away in China and crowds.
So in other words, you can scan by
standing in one place at a group
of petitioners.
And I couldn't find any proof of
that. I just saw rumors and
then and I thought it seemed kind of like
10 years from now.
And then somebody pointed out that the
United States uses cards with a special
meter with a special,
you know, special scanner to scan workers
crossing the border back and forth from
the U.S. to Mexico.
And it has a several meter range.
And then that same person pointed out
this.
Easy pass, Easy Pass
actually scans you and
pays your toll as you go through a
highway in the United States and almost
I mean, almost everybody with a car has
one of these things and it's tracking
you. And it seemed really
innocent at first because it's just a
toll tracking thing.
And that's when we found out that it's
actually tracking you all over the place.
There are hackers that managed to
hack this thing together, where it makes
a cow mooing sound every time you get
the sensor picks you up.
And if you're in New York City, it never
stops moving.
So they they seem to
be tracking people like every few yards,
and the idea is that it's for traffic
patterns and traffic management.
But you know, the technology is there.
And what we've learned when the
technology is there is the technology
gets used in a lot of different ways.
Can you raise your hand if your country
requires you to carry an ID card?
Wow,
wow.
And how many of those cards can you raise
your hand again if there if they're smart
cards?
And raise your hand if your card includes
your fingerprints.
Again, the technology is there
in China, if you want to tweet, you
have to register with your national ID
number. And most people use Weibo,
which is heavily censored in China
because Twitter is blocked.
Your personal information is shared among
many public ministries, the Ministry
of Public Security, the Ministry of
Health, the local police and even
like low level neighborhood watch
people have access to like,
you know, your your history with STDs
and stuff, and this information
is used to round people up.
For example, on December 1st of this
year, which is World AIDS Day, a few
weeks ago, a group of 200
petitioners living with AIDS traveled
to Beijing to plead for a monthly
bit of money that they're supposed to get
from the government.
100 R&B.
I think it is 100 or 120.
They came to protest and police used
hand-held scanners to select people
from the crowd and detain them.
So that was the Chinese government's
Feel-Good Story for World AIDS Day, and
they made the mistake of it being the
first story. So it was actually the image
from World AIDS Day in a lot of news
outlets this year,
and I want to focus a little bit on this
special population of dangerous persons
people with AIDS in China.
That's just a list of everybody gets your
car, your info.
They share the database, so anyway, I'll
talk more about it. And this is Hunan
province.
It's a rural farming area.
There are millions of farmers intention,
and they were the victims of a blood
selling scandal over the past 20
years. Government officials in the region
ran profitable side businesses where
they collected and sold blood for
transfusions to blood banks.
Originally, the government did not want
to accept blood from outside of China
because they were afraid it would be
infected with HIV.
So they started to pay
people in China to do it.
But it isn't something that a lot of
people like to do for different cultural
reasons. So they started to pay them
and they would give them the equivalent
of five U.S.
dollars. And they put all the blood
into big containers, big vats,
big barrels, according to blood types.
So one big barrel with type B,
another big barrel with type A
and so on.
And they didn't test the blood for HIV
hepatitis, anything else for cultural
reasons. They then injected a little of
the blood back into the person who had
donated it.
So if anybody else in the Typekit
barrel had HIV, well,
you might get it too. You probably would.
It was injected directly into your
bloodstream, and that is the most
efficient way to transmit aids.
And the farmers didn't know they were
infected. They had never heard of AIDS.
Many of them were poor farmers in their
late teens or 20s.
They eventually got married, had
children, didn't know they were infected.
Whole families and then whole villages
started to die, and they were famously
called AIDS villages.
And this is how about 100000
people were infected with AIDS in China.
And plan a the government plan
for dealing with this crisis
was to let the people die off in secret.
We have documents that disclose this,
but planning did not work for the Chinese
government because there was a
whistleblower.
I will show you here's a picture from
a few years ago of the families in one of
these AIDS villages.
These are people that like farm to eat
so that they can't farm.
Here's a baby from one of the AIDS
villages.
One of
a woman's health, a women's health
doctor, a gynecologist, was treating
a woman in the region, and she
eventually realized that this woman she
was treating had aids, that she'd gotten
it from a blood transfusion when she was
giving birth.
And then this doctor tested other women
for HIV, and all of a sudden she realized
that the blood supply in China was not
safe, and she gradually
traced it back to these blood selling
businesses in Henan, which
I think maybe early on didn't realize
there was a problem. And then we can see
there's like a timeline you can see when
they realized there was a problem and the
fact that they didn't change anything
after they realized that there was a
problem, which is China is not unique in
that situation anyway.
So this doctor
wrote pamphlets about this to spread the
word to families, and she gave
interviews to very courageous local
newspapers who printed information about
this. And then the word got out to the
New York Times, and it was no longer
secret, and the Chinese government was
unable to let people just die.
They had to care for them a little bit.
Here are cemeteries
with a lot of recent graves in Hunan, and
about 40000 people have already died.
This is Gallia Chea,
the whistleblower she risked
her life to tell people about this
epidemic.
She is one tough person, one
tough individual.
She was harassed by the police.
She was put under house arrest in her
like 80s 70s,
but she eventually was freed through
the intervention of this woman.
Dr. GAO received an award from
Hillary Clinton's organization Vital
Voices in Washington, D.C., in 2007
to get her to D.C., Washington, D.C.
and out of house arrest.
The former first lady intervened on
her behalf with Chinese officials.
Dr. GAO now lives in New York, reportedly
being taken care of by Columbia
University graduate students.
So sometimes Hillary Clinton supports
whistleblowers, and that's an excellent
thing.
But getting back to the ID cards,
these ID cards
are used in a number of ways.
For example, when the U.S.
National Institutes of Health gives money
to China, as they often do to study
aids in China or, say, sex workers
in HIV, China's health
department collects the
data, enters it into the national
database, where the Ministry of Public
Security can read it and arrest these
people. Arrest the sex workers
when drug users check into a hotel.
Twenty minutes later, there's a knock on
the door and the police drag them away.
Two months ago.
Here we go. Two months ago, a Chinese
journalist wrote something negative about
the government.
And then later, not much later went to
the train station to buy
a ticket and you use your card to do it,
your ID card, which you have to do.
And when he entered his ID information,
the word petitioner showed
up on the ticket monitor, not journalist,
which he is, but petitioner.
He was actually labeled by the system, a
protester.
And the next day, his microblog
account was closed and he was
talked to by the police.
So it's possible to label people
incorrectly on purpose and use that
to suppress their freedom of expression.
In another case, in the last couple of
months, a human rights lawyer used
his card, bought a ticket,
was just about to get on the train and
was thrown into a van and ejected
at his house.
So imagine a world where you can't go
anywhere in this weird way and you don't
know when you don't know when it's going
to happen because these things are not at
every train station and nobody knows or
nobody who doesn't run them
knows which train stations they're at.
So it's kind of a mind fuck and
you have to self-censor.
Like, maybe I won't go, you know,
to wherever seen.
Maybe I won't go here, maybe I won't go
there. And pretty soon you're moving back
and moving back. You're censoring
yourself.
So the government doesn't need to censor
you. And that's much more efficient
for the government.
Huh. And then
let me introduce you to the big
men of China.
This is the Politburo Standing Committee.
Note the diversity.
Just kidding.
The guy in the top middle, Li Keqiang,
was the governor of Hunan province during
the blood selling scandal, when 100000
people were infected with AIDS and no
one has ever been held accountable.
But he was in charge.
He was in fact promoted several times,
and the reason he's on this in
this picture is that he is now the
premier of China.
As of March of 2013,
but we don't know much about him.
There's a rumor that each of these guys
gets the spoils of a whole corrupt
Chinese industry.
You get gold mining, you get banks.
It would be interesting to know more
about the finances of these public
officials, especially Li Keqiang,
the one with the arrow.
These scanners are used to go after
people. This is a $100 handheld
scanner. It doesn't phone home.
It just gets a basic information on the
card name, address, ethnic
background, which when you're talking to
the Chinese police, is pretty scary.
Here's an even cheaper one, $47.
This is my favorite because of the name.
This is the fugitive finder.
It was just approved by for use
by the U.S. TSA.
It can scan your card and check over
100 databases to find out exactly
who you are.
It was designed by an American company in
Port Townsend, Washington, Washington
state. The same company makes a Buie
like device that floats in the water
and monitors boats coming into the harbor
in Washington state for oil companies
and the U.S. government.
And obviously, it can do it from a
distance. It's not up against these
boats.
Here's another device by the same company
in Port Townsend that the TSA
would like to use in airports.
You can see the little skull and
crossbones clearly there.
That means the guy, whoever it was, did
not pass the test.
Whatever, you know, the check.
And here is an
image of this Bui situation, the
person who runs this company
is an expert in military intelligence.
He also does things that his makes
apps that check people at bars
for their ID and then also one where
you download the app and you can you can
record for yourself how much you've been
drinking and where you've been
and where on the map you've been.
And I just feel like, you know what could
possibly go wrong with that?
Here are things that that need
to be done necessarily by, you know, I
look at the word you, I feel bad about
it, but but things that are missing.
Actually, let me start with what we don't
know yet about or where,
you know, the people that I've spoken to,
which is a lot of human rights groups and
Chinese activists, a bunch of people
don't know yet.
We don't know how much information is
stored on the card and how much is stored
in the national database because it could
be all in the card.
We know there's a national database and
we know a lot of it's in the national
database, but we don't know how much and
exactly what it is.
We don't know what kind of encryption is
used on the chip.
We don't know if the cards are
reprogramed pre reprogramable.
Like what if you were somebody else or
somebody who didn't exist?
We don't know if the card.
We don't know how far away they can be
scanned. We know that they can be scanned
really close, but we don't know what the
outer distance is and how to what
extent the Chinese government is using
for sure. Using the bigger scanners.
The longer range scanners.
We don't know who makes the decisions to
say flag a reporter incorrectly
as a petitioner,
and there are lots of things
that would be useful.
One is encryption tools in Chinese
that are easy to use. I'm sure everybody
is aware of that.
P-gp here's something that
would be helpful to a small group
of people who are under a lot of
pressure. So sometimes
your surveillance is like when you open
your front door and there's five cops
there and they're just there all the
time.
And sometimes your surveillance is you
don't have to open your front door
because somebody is actually living with
you, which is happened to a friend of
mine.
And when that happens,
you're kind of right on the edge of kind
of being taken away pretty much all the
time, especially at this time
of year when the
back of a lot of different people
who would otherwise be get involved,
you know, they're busy with the holidays,
they're not paying attention.
So this is the worst time of year for
Chinese activists, and a
lot of times they're dragged away like
the middle of the night and nobody knows
where. And the government doesn't have to
say where they went for six months
by law.
So you don't know if they're dead or
alive or where they went.
It would be great if there was something
this person could just like slam or,
you know, or click or something that
would take their picture and maybe the
picture of the person who's taking them
and then track them.
I know that's, you know, I'm
not a I'm a human rights person.
But that would be helpful.
And then send like send a message to
a human rights organization that's
designated for this or,
you know, a relative even.
Activists like myself need to do a better
job of preparing for Christmas
and maybe doing something like
Thunderclap, or you already enlist the
support of everybody on a list
and then when something bad happens, you
push a button and hell rains down
on the people that that
arrested someone detain them.
And it's good to to fund
groups that are already smart that you
already trust and respect.
And I've done nonprofit work for
long enough to be in the situation where
you're in a totally underfunded group and
a totally well-funded group and welfare
groups can totally screw up.
But if you're if the group is underfunded
but really smart, people burn out and
they don't have like, I mean, these are
people that are dealing with the NSA.
They're dealing with the Chinese
government. You know, they need to
have enough money to comfortably
like put teens out to work on things
because they're up against huge
obstacles.
And that's basically it.
I'm going to say a huge number
of people this took us.
I mean, this was a lot of people's
involvement.
Thank you so much to the Chaos Computer
Club.
And thank you for having me here.
This is an amazing experience for me.
Hacker conferences. Not my usual area.
Super exciting stuff.
Alarcon, who lives near me in
Philadelphia and has spoken at previous
congresses and who has advised me
on what to do. Griffin Boyce, who
helps make bridges for tours so
that to get people in
repressed countries onto tour.
John James, a great friend of mine who
helped me to research reporters Paul
Mooney and Melissa Chen Mack Davis,
who's a China Hand China expert in
Geneva Privacy Watch, Human Rights
Watch, open society foundations.
The people in anonymous, they're the
anonymous sources. Not the same as
anonymous would make a fantastic dinner
party, and I wish that I could bring them
all together because they're amazing
group of people and feminism, which gives
me the guts to stand here.
So that's all. Thank you.
One more thing.
This is my first trip to Germany, and as
an AIDS activist, I'm so thrilled
this is the Berlin patient on the right
when he was in my city of Philadelphia.
He's the first person ever cured of AIDS,
and the country that cured him was
Germany. So anyway, so yeah.
OK, thank you very much.
There was a very interesting but also
kind of chilling talk
that your go from the topic here.
Now we still have time from four
questions from the audience.
If you have questions, could you line up
in front of the microphones
here? And I
will also have questions from the
internet because this talk is streamed
into the internet and
I play car or signal angel has
one question Go ahead, please.
Oh, the RFID chip
got the most attention in
the chat, so they
all want that. Like what is about
physical errors in your I.D.
card? How is that handled?
And like, are people allowed
to use RFID blockers?
Like what happens if police
can't reach your scanners from distance?
Or I mean, what happens if somebody
use a microwave to deactivate
the chip? Are they, like, punished?
So there's this whole area
got really a lot of
detailed questions, right?
Those are questions that I mostly don't
have the answers to.
I do know that.
I mean, it's hard to get a card
to pull apart because you need to carry
it all the time if you're in China, so
it's hard for me to just borrow one
or something.
And those are answers that we don't have
that I personally don't have.
The people that I spoke to didn't seem to
have. We don't really know the exact
architecture of the chips in these
cards, and therefore we don't
know how to hack them.
And so the first thing is, what is the
card like? What is the what is the card
exactly understanding the cards better,
which means getting a hold of some cards.
And the second would be thinking about,
I don't know, other stuff.
Plus this is probably not discussed very
openly.
Question a lot of this stuff is not
like if this were happening in a
lot of countries, you just find people
that worked on this and they would tell
you and, you know, maybe
they couldn't do anything about it, but
the information would be there.
This is not this is very, very
difficult information to get, either
people didn't have it or the couple,
really. I mean, one example, I think the
person had it and was too afraid to tell
me it's
it's not not the same as
other countries.
OK, well, thank you.
Microphone number two, appear in front,
please.
Yeah, well, more
challenge. I guess the actual question
you actually already
formed the think
the challenge that now is up to us,
which apparently is there's something
really to research in
those currents, still a
very worthwhile looking at, I think.
But obviously the
challenges we need to get
more than one car to know
what's inside those most
likely.
Um, yeah, and
that's really the question how to
obtain at least 10 carts
or so, which
10 cars
should be the basis to figure
out what the inside?
I don't think that that's impossible.
And I think that the great thing about
having this platform and being able to
to like, be here and you saying that is
that now people can hear this and maybe
they have some cards.
Yeah. Mm hmm.
Thank you. Let's hope for next year.
That's all for next year. Thank you.
OK.
Microphone number four in the center of
the room.
My name is also not really a question,
it's you said stuff to do,
and one of them was get
a way to track people who have been
abducted practically by the police.
Yeah, but the whole joke
was about one big
one card, which is used to track people.
So if wouldn't
it be possible to just use that card
and scan a the person
who's a policeman do have
to get to this car the
whole time, don't they?
The card has to be, as it's
been explained to me. The card doesn't do
anything itself. It's like a computer.
And forgive me, I am.
I'm there are probably 100 people in this
room, you know, that know more about
this. But my understanding is the card is
almost like it holds the data.
It's almost like a computer disk that you
put into the computer.
You need the computer to be able to read
it. So that's a scanner of some sort.
Either the sort of dumb one or the one
that sent that phone's home or whatever.
So I don't know, you
know, that could happen, but we would
need the police to helpfully scan, and
that doesn't feel like maybe that would
happen. Is that?
I understand your question or your
comment, though. Yeah, the
popular comment was why not scan the
people who are getting
well, use the card against
its master, basically
because it is a tracking device.
So well, why not using it to track
abducted people?
That's possibly.
There's also this thing that if you if
you're a lost hiker, it sends
tweets out. And I don't think we want
tweets, but and it's not encrypted.
But that would be an interesting and
like. I wonder if somehow that could be
moved into something and there are
bracelets that they've made for this
purpose. But like
without asking, I guess, the right people
because you know, you don't want someone
to try and remove the bracelet
the wrong way.
But thank you.
OK? Microphone number two up here,
please.
You've mentioned this list of the
undesirable people and how you get
on there. I wonder how big a problem just
corruption is. So if if some some
police just pay a bribe or you'll be
listed as a truck, a truck user,
is that a big problem?
Or I understand that somehow
there are counterfeit cards, but I have
no other information than I have not seen
one.
I mean, you can you can.
You can order fake ones, but they're not
really fake and they wouldn't pass a
scam. You know, I mean, like, they're
just picture cards and not as far as I
can tell.
Now, I wonder if you.
What's the danger of being listed
incorrectly in this database
as, say, say, a drug user
if you just didn't pay a bribe to it
to the police?
Possibly. I mean, first of all,
I'm not sure we know who's in who's
actually. I think I believe that I was
told that a lot of people can enter the
data.
So maybe that's possible bribing bribing
someone to change your data?
That's an interesting idea.
OK. More questions from the Internet
Africa.
So I'm sorry.
So the next question is, do
do you think our EU and
US privacy laws will be sufficient
to counter these invasive usage
of I.D. systems like
we started to have some in Germany,
for example?
Yeah, that is a good question.
Right now, the United States I.D.
card is a piece of paper that
falls apart and which until
a couple of years ago, I was always
mentally criticizing.
It's a little it's a piece of cardboard
and it it falls apart.
It's just nothing.
It's not even plastic.
You don't even have. It's not even
encased in plastic.
So I think that
I worry that
I mean, our record is not good right now
on this.
This is the situation is OK right now.
It's fine this piece of paper,
but it seems like who knows what the
future holds. And I think that one reason
that I wanted to do this talk is just
have people keep an eye on this.
You know, in the United States and
elsewhere and here in Germany,
you have you have an antenna in your
cards and you can have
fingerprint data.
And you know, again
that the technology is there.
It just, I don't know.
OK.
The lady from the center of the room,
please thank you.
I'm a student at UCLA
and I was born and raised in China
and went to United States
five years ago.
And so right now I live in L.A.,
I I have ID card.
And this is not a U.S.
citizen.
I don't use it anymore.
If you need you.
They say.
This is a great this is a
great Congress
that is very helpful to know and that you
should say nothing else, I
know that mean, but if you want it, of
course.
Yeah, I don't have it with me, but you
know, maybe we can talk later.
I'm going to go to the noisy square in
case anybody else has any, you know,
after this to case anybody wants to talk.
OK, good
upfront here, please.
I was just wondering, you
said that you wanted a function to
attract people when they are picked up by
police, but when those people are picked
up by police and they searched for cell
phones and the other types of devices,
and I take off them.
So this device would have to be
very small and to
be able to be hidden.
So it wouldn't be an option to just do
an app for a smartphone that I
just cannot imagine the device that
wouldn't be found by police and be
so easy to handle at the same time.
Well, one thing that's weird that I don't
understand, and probably I just haven't
asked the right person, is that sometimes
they let you keep your cell phone when
you're detained for a while and like,
then there are these like, weird.
I mean, this happens in the US
demonstrated like protests.
Also, for some reason, they've let you
and then you send a series of messages
out and then people all respond
to the messages.
And then eventually, like four days
later, your phone disappears for, you
know, the duration.
But they do seem to sometimes let people
keep their phones. I I can't even imagine
why it doesn't.
And I haven't asked, but that's a
thing. But obviously, you have to be
really tiny, you know?
And I I that's like a dream
thing. I know nothing of the world of
making something like that. Nothing.
So it may be completely unrealistic, but
it would be something tiny would probably
be necessary, you know, or something
that you can easily pick up
and hide or put in your ear.
You know, I don't know.
I mean, these are people that literally
that, you know, they get dragged away and
nobody hears from them for two years.
The stakes are really high, you know?
So I mean, this is a country that
unfortunately, although it has so many
wonderful things about it, currently is
detaining a Nobel Prize winner.
So.
OK. OK.
Another question from the Internet
Africa.
Yeah, one last question.
Like Chinese people, if they travel
abroad, like come to such a Congress
or something. Do they have to take their
cards with them or are they allowed to
take their coats with them?
I would. The people that I know.
The cards that I've seen, I would
imagine that they are allowed to bring
them and other people would probably know
better than me.
But do they have to bring them?
I don't know. That's a good question.
I don't think.
I don't know. I'm not going to speculate.
I'm not sure.
Sorry.
It's a good question.
And on the other hand, like two
people traveling to China
have to carry a card.
Yes, they do.
They need a passport.
So we're not talking about passports,
we're talking about internal passports
right now.
OK, thanks. Sure.
Yes, please.
I think I can answer this question from
the internet.
Yeah, I'm I'm from China
Pure. I don't bring because he brings
the I.D.
card. And even in China, I
don't bring every day I live in China
for. I live in Beijing for 17
years.
I didn't bring the I.D.
card to ever deal with me.
Hmm. No. Police I.D.
Ha.
They seem like they are now.
They're doing more spot checks.
But I don't, you know, I don't mean to.
But that's what people have been saying.
They didn't used to, but now they are.
I don't know why, and I may be incorrect,
but that's what I've been been told.
And in a sense, for your research
and the for another question about as a
microblog.
Yeah. And in China, we can use
magboro.
I can register an account in the Michael
Brown Michael Brown.
Right, right. Without it.
But with your ID number, right?
Yeah. Your I.D. number
with without you.
Just follow some.
Some someone told to wash.
You do not put anything.
You don't need it. Import any I.D..
No, but I know several years
ago and we can write
something without input.
Our I.D. number.
Currently is usually this
suicide machine, something you need
for the I.D. card, but it's very easy
for for Chinese tool
to search, to use a Google to
search for an I.D.
number from the internet and put
it into the mirror.
So you cast your mind.
Yeah.
OK, thank you.
Thank you.
These are great. This is really exciting,
right? Like things to hear?
Any more questions from the internet, I
think.
Who's speaking from the internet?
It seems like, God, where's the person
up there right beside the camera
and she has microphone as well?
OK, no more questions
from the room.
So that leaves us
to wish you good luck for your struggle
and for your calls and
people interested in meeting.
You can meet your later.
Like where?
Like Noisey Square?
OK, I don't know where that is.
I mean, I remember where that what part
of the center it's in.
But yeah, it's on the second floor, I
think.
OK. And I would have to look around
as well. OK, once again,
thank you very much.
Thank you.