*preroll music*
Herald Angel: What does Big Brother see while he is watching?
Simon Menner is talking to you about this:
"Uncovering Images from the secret Stasi Archives."
He was born 1978 in southern Germany,
now he lives and works in Berlin.
He does a lot of stuff with photography
and history. And he has been researching
for three years in Stasi files and images.
And he is going to show us why this is
still relevant today, or even
more relevant than ever. Give him a warm welcome.
*applause*
Simon: thank you.
I was told to use this rather than the
lavalier mic, so I hope it works.
First a disclaimer: I'm an artist
I am not a historian, so my approach to
the material I am going to show you is
somewhat different from what you might expect
from a regular historian. But we can
discuss this as we go on.
And very very briefly, before I am going
to show you images I have found at the
archive of the Stasi and some very few
I have found at the archive of the BND -
I am going to show you three bodies of work
that brought me to my interest in the
Stasi files. So, I am a trained artist.
I'm a photographer and normally I do
things like this. I am very interested in
the relationship of perception... what
perception does within the context
of modern conflict. It turns out,
more importantly, perception is a battle field.
And fear is a weapon. And this is actually
not just a set of landscape images.
It is actually a set of photographs for
which I had to have support by the German Army.
They supported me with snipers.
They were hiding in the landscape and were
aiming at the camera, and therefore at the
viewer. Which is ... okay ... of course.
So, the sniper would be here. And in most
of the pictures from this series there is
actually almost no trace to be seen from
the sniper. But this is the way
a sniper looks within the landscape.
So they were ordered to aim at me.
Even though I couldn't see them. So,
sometimes, when they were posing, I told
them: "Well, just don't hide behind a tree
and I don't see you." And they told me:
"No no, don't worry, we are aiming at you."
*laughter*
Of course, the whole thing is artificial.
Because they would never choose this kind
of setting and this kind of environment
for their... To pose a threat.
There's a sniper here, or
there's a sniper here.
But this is something that really plays an
important role in today's conflicts
That you try to occupy your opponent's mind.
And influence his or her behaviour
in that way, through creating fear. That's
another set of images, it's based on
handbooks by the US Army on how to
construct booby traps out of ordinary
objects. Like here, a TV set or radio.
If you switch it on, it blows up. A box,
or a pipe - as an artist, I find this
image very intriguing, because there is
this one very famous painting by Margritte
´This is not a pipe' - actually, this is
not a pipe, laughter
even though it is supposed to look like a pipe.
*applause*
So be aware, that's from the sixties, from
the US Army, and these handbooks are now
out there and used by the opposing forces.
By forces they encounter. And the
whole story behind these manuals is, well,
you're supposed to create fear in your
opponent. Here is a German chocolate bar,
if you break it, it blows up in your face.
Or a tea kettle. The more ordinary objects
are, the more terrifying it becomes.
Because once you realise that there is no
way for you to avoid this idea of fear
everything is dangerous. Of course
the other side does this as well.
This is from videos I found online.
This is the last video frame before the blast.
So the last video frame before a car bomb
or roadside bomb or something like this
explodes. And the same here.
So, it's the same technique. The more I
was... the more research I did,
in this big topic of fear and
perception within conflict,
I started to think more and more
about the topic of surveillance.
Because the interesting aspect
would be to look at images from, of
surveillance. Because that would show us
these mechanisms from the other side.
but the strange thing is, we talk so much
about surveillance. And much of what we
talk about is image based. So,
'Big Brother is watching you.'
That has something to with images.
But we take it for granted that there's
nothing for us to see.
Big Brother is watching us, but is hidden
behind some curtains. But I came to realise
that actually, withing the very unique
history of Germany we have this huge
opportunity in the Stasi archives that are
accessible to the public, to do, try to
show what Big Brother actually sees.
And I approached them because I could only
find written references to images they have.
And asked them: "Why?"
I could never find any images. So,
do they still exist? And they told me:
"Sure, come over." And that was the start
of a three year, or lengthy, research project.
And first I am going to show you images
I was then, in the end, not really
interested in. Images we know exist.
So, from now on, that's authentic Stasi
material. There is some from the Czech Republic
ČSSR. I will point them out and in the end
there is some from the BND, I'll point
those out as well. That is something
we expect to see: shots taken through
button holes and surveillance industries.
That's the US embassy in East Berlin.
And the entrance doors were all under
constant surveillance. With photo cameras
and video cameras. But be aware, in the 80s
the video equipment was not that sophisticated.
So, at night time, the Stasi did record
eight hours of darkness. But it still
ended up in the files. *laughter*
That's the state of mind we are talking about.
So, everyone was photographed,
and then we have, quite often we find post
boxes, where everyone posting a letter is
photographed. No matter, who he or she is.
Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember
these images, because I am going to
reference to them later. I was more interested
in something like this. So, the
internal view. And now, two years ago I
was able to publish a book and now I am
going to somewhat follow the structure
within the book, because I was really
interested in how do you become a spy?
And I encountered a lot of material
that was meant for training purposes.
These images are from a training session
on how to disguise yourself as regular citiizens.
laughter
Which I found quite strange, because
normally that's nothing you should have to learn.
But still, and then you have a soldier.
These ordinary citizens: some of them look
like they live now in Berlin, amongst the hipsters
like this one laughter that was entitled
'Western Tourist' laughter
Another tourist, like, the photographer.
So, the Stasi photographed something that
tried to look like a photographer. So.
Women work for the Stasi as well.
The same thing, disguising manuals.
What do you need to dress up like this.
And in what circumstance would you use
something like this. He looks like from
'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' I think.
But be aware, that's not meant to be funny.
That was not meant to be seen by any one
of you or me. That was meant to train agents.
And we are going to see later it was
actually used, here we have a hitchhiker,
at a motor way around Berlin. And that is
from the ČSSR archives to which I was
granted acces earlier this year. They did
the same thing, so it's not just something
the Stasi did, they did it as well.
And then you had other certain aspects of
how to disguise, like how to wear a wig.
Or how to stick a fake mustache.
For privacy concerns, the images had to
be pixeled. But I could see the faces
while researching the archives.
Much funnier, actually. So, to stick fake
mustaches... Then, again from the ČSSR,
you could also disguise cars. Like,
you could draw something that's from a
steel mill in the ČSSR. And then, in a way
a disguised stroller, with a video camera.
And that is actually a video camera from
Japan, they imported this type of surveillance
equipment quite frequently. Then you
encounter other material, like how to
transmit secret signals and how to transmit
codes, the codes are not known now,
but still, the photos exist and they have
a strange beauty in them.
And then, once you got your training, you
had got to be taught how to arrest someone.
And then you first knock the door, and
then you arrest him and - notice the piece
of cloth on the floor, cause they didn't
want to ruin his white shirt -
and maybe he wants to fight, so you have
to fight laughter So. But the Stasi always
wins. And again, the ČSSR they took things
very seriously. Things they wanted to
escalate much quicker. So you have to shoot
people - booh - and again,
it quickly escalates, he has to be shot.
And then, when you know that, you have to
be taught how to follow people around.
This - sometimes you find these very
elaborate stories where you follow people
around, this is just a very short exception.
So, she is at the bakery, and then she goes
to the doctor's office, which is already
something the Stasi maybe shouldn't know.
But still - and then she does a phone call
And here she is smiling at the camera.
Of course, the whole thing is staged for
the colleagues. But this sometimes is
very lengthy, you see this guy shopping,
and shopping, and walking at Alexanderplatz,
and meeting an other guy... It's like a
photo love story. *laughter*
And then they take the car and he gets off
the car in the middle of the woods, and
then he walks and an other car comes.
And then they meet...
Why do you take such pictures?
What's the point of that? But still,
that ends up at the archive.
And is part of the training operation.
Now, the training is done,
This then is a real surveillance photograph,
you see a black arrow, that's supposedly
the person they were shadowing, and then
you see, 'okay, we are not in the
training manual anymore, but we are
already a step ahead, and that's then the
real material. He or she is followed
around the country. Again, the Czech Republic,
you have, like, ordinary citizens
being shadowed entering a house.
After the shadowing comes also the
breach of privacy. And here we have the
room of a teenager, which looks very
innocent to us - but I am very positive
that this - I guess it's a guy -, that he
never entered university in East Germany.
Due to the fact that they could prove that
he was a fan of 'Wile E. Coyote' and the
United States, or so they thought, they
couldt prove. And they took such images
as evidence for your thinking. Which is
a problem of a surveillance operation,
I would argue. And then here we have,
- I don't know if you can see - there
might be the biggest Madonna fan of all of
Communist Eastern Europe. laughter
Same thing, probably would never be able
to study law, or medicine, or something
like that. And then you have, frequently,
- sorry, cover your eyes maybe - frequently
you have images such as this. And that was
classified as 'Western Pornography', and
the funny thing about this classification
is, very often you find files, that read
'Western Pornography', and the photographs
are missing. *laughter*
So, someone went to this appartment,
documented everything, archived it, and
maybe the guy was persecuted, and when no
one was looking, they took the pictures.
Which then shows the absurd nature of the
system. For me, this is a very... key image.
And a set of images. But this is actually
one of the images that brought me to
contacting the Stasi Archive. I read about
those images, this is a Polaroid, as you
can see by the white background.
And, as a matter of fact, the Stasi
frequently purchased Polaroid films or
confiscated ones sent to East Germany.
And the reason for that was, when they
broke into peoples' homes, and you should
never find out, the easiest thing was: You
break in, you look around, what's interesting,
you take a Polaroid, and with the help of
the Polaroid you are able to put everything
back into the original position.
So, this is an absolutely brutal image.
Because it shows the deepest possible
breach of privacy imaginable.
And most people in fact never found out
their apartment was searched, and that was
absolutely illegal, even in East Germany.
And, so it was very revealing last year,
a German TV Station thought it was a clever
idea to bring me, hook me up with a
former Stasi general. And he - And I told
him about the Polaroids. And he said:
"Yeah, but, eh, ähm, please, keep in mind,
I've, I never broke into peoples' apartments."
And I said: "Yeah, well, did you order it?"
"Yes I ordered it, but I never broke
into peoples' houses!"
And I thought, what stupid excuse is that?
Who then is responsible? Because normally
the excuse is always, oh, I was ordered to.
And his excuse was, yeah, I just ordered
them, but I didn't really, why would
they do it? *gasping* I just ordered it...
Was not my intention... So that really was
revealing to me, like, the state of mind
within such a system. So, you have
folders and folders and folders of those
Polaroids. And when they found something
incriminating, they might have returned
a few days later with the police and a
search warrant. Because they needed a
search warrant, even in East Germany.
So, and now we realise, even though it looks
funny, the way they disguise themselves,
it's meant seriously. And it's a terrible,
brutal system. Which you also see in these
images from the ČSSR, where the people
are forced to stage their own attempt of
fleeing the country. So they were made
to stage the thing they were arrested for.
Even a young child was made to reenact
their failed attempt to flee the country,
and this is brutal.
And, so, sometimes you find images that
are completely out of any category.
*laughter*
Like a guinea pig - I told you earlier - to
think back - remember the post box with
the old lady. That's an image of one of
those files. So you have an image of
a post box, you see it, taken from a high
angle. And, maybe, out of a private apartment.
And my, and then, you have this shot after
shot after shot. And two pictures of
this guinea pig.
And then the surveillance operation
continues. And what I read out of that is
that he was in a private apartment, and
was bored - and there ran this guinea pig.
And he lies flat on the ground,
takes two shots, and then continues the
surveillance operation. Knowing, that the
material is going to end up at the archive.
And gets its archive number.
That's German bureaucracy, I guess.
Very revealing - so these guys, that's
actually a British spy, there were some
officially registered Western spies within
East Germany. The Russians had the same
thing for West Germany. And the Stasi's
job was to follow them and document what
they were doing. They couldn't do anything
to them, they could only document it.
And you find many of these images.
A spy taking a picture of a spy, in an
endless circle of surveillance. *laughter*
And what's very revealing is the fact
that I tried to gain access to the, to
their material - it's still classified.
*laughter*
I am very positive I know what the images
show: It's very much the same thing.
*laughter*
But, so, I tried to understand what
these people are thinking. But, it turns out,
even though they were fighting each other,
they seemed to share a very common
state of mind.
But, so, that looks like the end point
of surveillance.
No, it's not.
It's one step further: Stasi agents,
watching Stasi agents watching other people.
That's a triangle of surveillance, ja.
Common as well, never be sure about
your colleagues, they could be up to something.
So, better spy on them as well.
But then, I present you, the absolute
high point and end point of surveillance:
Which is the surveillance selfie.
*laughter and applause*
I give you another one.
And they knew it was going to end up at
the archive. So they are spying on
themselves, while spying on others, while
they are spying on themselves.
So, it's this: it's almost meditative.
And now, who are these people?
Now we are really at the internal view.
The Stasi looks at itself. Here is a
group photo. Remember this guy -
we encounter him later.
That happens to be the phone surveillance unit.
Highest ranking officials here,
that's the boss of the whole bunch.
And, of course, the Stasi, Eastern Europe...
they like their medals. And then an
award ceremony. Flowers, medal, piece of paper.
And there is the guy from the phone
surveillance unit, again, so, he gets
really shabby flowers. And, piece of paper.
That's odd: see this, the wax seal? And,
it's burnt at the side?
Because: He was knighted.
A knight of the phone surveillance unit.
*timid laughter, applause*
See this, to the Non-Germans here:
That Section Symbol stands for the Code of Law,
this isn't widely used outside Germany,
He knew that they were breaking the law,
and they're mocking it.
They're mocking it with this ceremony.
So now, here, you are the knight
of the phone surveillance unit.
Congratulations. Haha, what a good joke.
Another set of images, which is very
revealing, is this:
Strange finding in the Stasi archive.
A strange combination, see. The bishop
and a soccer player, and back there,
with the blue shirt, that's a Party youth
member. And see the ballerina there?
Strange. The guy in the suit: It's his
birthday. And he is the boss of them.
Theses are all highest ranking Stasi officials.
And they're surprising him with a birthday party.
And the surprise is to dress up as
those people you put under surveillance.
So, see, Party Youth, soccer player,
another soccer player, the ballerina.
Beautiful, very beautiful.
Soccer fan, of course you have to put
them under surveillance. A doctor!
Of course, who cares about the right
to confidentiality of doctors. A judge.
Of course, you have to put that judge under surveillance.
And that is a disguise, a dress-up,
hardly to be understood outside Germany.
He's dressed up as a peace activist.
He wears this 'Swords to ploughshares'
("Schwerter zu Pflugscharen') sticker
on his head, and some other peace stickers
there, and he is very proud of himself.
Why is that? Because it was such a successful
costume...
I think: 'Where did the get the costume from?'
The easiest thing, for someone
like him, would be to take it from
somebody he put in jail.
Because you could at least lose access
to university for wearing one of these stickers.
At least. Or you could serve some, short,
time, but some time in jail.
You could lose access to good housing and
everything. Why is he able to mock it?
Because he is the one who would decide
whether or not you lose access...
And this is the terrible thing about these images.
They are very revealing.
--I am very fast...--
So, these images are now, what,
25, 30, years old. Why do I think they
are still relevant today?
It's because of something like this:
there was a short period, after
the fall of the Berlin Wall, so the
Wall fell in November '89, and the Stasi
wasn't desolved until January. So there
was a very short period of time
where the Stasi could actually try to
destroy material. They managed to do
destroy a huge bunch of material.
Not very important sets - except for
espionage, that's almost gone.
But if it would have been up to them,
that would have been the fate of all these images.
Destruction.
We would have had never been able to look
at these images. And,
even though we don't know what these images
stand for - that's a group of gay men -
and they infiltrated it and it was
compromising to one of their colleagues
that they infiltrated it, they did things
like that. But, they tried to destroy it.
So, 25 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall,
even more now, why do I
still think this material is really relevant?
I am going to show you something
that's even more special and more rare,
than the material I showed you just now.
It's this:
Over the course of approximately a year
I tried to convince the BND to grant me
access to their material. Which would
be amazing because in Germany we have
this one society with the two
opposing systems. So the view on the
cold war would be absolutely astonishing
if we would be able to look at all
the material.
And, after a year, I got the call,
and they told me: "yes, we have something
for you, come over."
There was actually, they have a small,
relatively small section in Berlin.
So I went there with my Scanner and they
gave me the - I would call them -
14 most boring pictures of
the BND history.
It's a match box.
This...
and that.
And, when I looked at these images,
I was like, 'are you kidding me?'
What do they show?
And this guy was very serious and told me:
"Unfortunately I can't tell you because
the information is still classified."
*laughter*
But then, he told me, as far as
he knows, these are the only images
they ever released.
And, yeah, toothpaste.
There´s a huge problem I have
with this, of course.
Not with this young lady in particular,
but in general with these images.
They can decide which images to show.
And one of the guys I was in contact with told me:
"Of course we have these disguise pictures...
and dress up, and things like that."
But, keep in mind, even though back then
he might have been the lowest in the hierarchy.
He might be the head of the department now.
Or the one who brought in the guy who is now
the head of the department.
Of course it's not in their interest
for these images to be released.
And then I think, 'but it's in my interest'
And in our interest, to decide, what images
are worth looking at or not.
And there is another problem with images
like this. We have almost nothing that is
accessible from the Western archives.
This is rare, this is very special.
Looks like shit, but it's very special.
But we have a trove from the Eastern archives.
And there is always, like the Merkel, and like, everyone --
when one of the Eastern countries decides,
'maybe we should limit access to our former Stalinist archive...'
they say 'no, don't do that!!'
'it must be open' - but what happens when we
have access to just one side?
And see all the terrible things they are doing?
And have no access to the other side?
I am not saying that the BND did the same terrible things
the Stasi did. But the BND was certainly breaking
our laws as well...
And so, but it does look more innnocent,
because we only know, have access to a very
terrible looking archive.
And if we look to West Germany,
it's like: 'Nothing there.'
Must be fine...
And that is a terrible thing.
There is a lot wrong with that.
-- I am almost at the end, I was rushing through...sorry --
-- But…I can show you two…well --
Just because I was too quick: from the Czech archive,
two videos. audio isn't important.
Oh, sorry, maybe it's not going to work.
It seems things escalated much quicker.
In the ČSSR... than in ... Sorry...
Live in the ČSSR must have been very dangerous.
These weapons, everywhere...
*soft, pacy music*
But the best thing comes now:
*laughter*
Who would carry something like that, there.
*applause*
And just, if you wonder - that's a very long film -
that's just a short part of it.
If you are ever attacked by someone with a chair...
[in German] Ne, das ist nicht wichtig.
Audio ist ganz furchtbar.
That's like, six or seven times he shows that.
And now he shows it again.
And then it is going to be used, but look
closely how it is used, the technique they just learned.
Okay, do this the next time you are attacked by someone with a chair.
So, he is going to be attacked by someone with a chair,
watch closely, he implements it quite properly.
*laughter*
Well, he didn't really.
And, things always, in this long film, always escalate very quickly.
And here are two very long shots,
and you are supposed to spot them, that are
unnecessarily long...
*laughter*
So, of course they find the black guy smuggling.
And he explains to him now, in English:
'Do you have more?' And he says no, no.
And still, the porn is in the shot.
And then he tells him, yea, it's going to be
very serious if you don't confess now.
And the black guy says. no, I don't have anything
to confess...
And now the guy on the left gets suspicious.
Look at him.
Very suspicious, this black young man.
He doesn't want to sign his confession.
He gets suspicious, too.
Very, very, very suspicious.
And, fortunately, the camera man made the slight move to the left...
Not to zoom in on the penis [sic]
No, no, he doesn't have anything.
But it turns out, he has something.
Because he's black and suspicious looking.
See.
Oh, he's moving his arm.
*laughter*
So, it turns out his arm is not broken.
Sorry, that was somewhat long, but I rushed through before.
And for some reason, he hides batteries
in his cast.
*applause*
So, he could bring in the watches, but he'd better hide the batteries.
Because that is, whoo....
So - any questions?
*applause*
Herald Angel: thank you
Simon: I hope you got what you paid for...
*laughter*
Herald: Maybe before we start Q&A, everybody who wants to leave, leave now.
Simon: oh wow.
Herald: We are going to take one minute so you can leave
and the others who want to stay have it quiet for the Q&A
And remember to use the rating system.
Simon: Oh, I brought post cards, if you want some.
Because we have to make fun of them as much as we can
*applause*
They're all the same motive, but take as many as you want, if you want any.
Herald: Thank you
*somenone too quietly to be understood*
Simon: Uh, with the microphone, I guess
Herald: There are two microphones for Q&A, no, four even, if you need them.
And we have questions from the internet.
Five seconds.
Okay. So, we will start with you!
Q: Just a short question, first, thanks for the wonderful talk.
It was very very interesting.
Can you give us the title of your book, please?
Simon: Oh, it's pretty much top if you google my name,
it's available in your local book store, or, if you want, Amazon.
It's still available, but there are not that many
copies left, *starts acting* so you should all get it as soon as possible... *laughter*
It's just 'Top Secret' and Simon Menner...
Or just Menner, my family doesn't write that many books... *more laughter*
Herald: Thank you, over here…
Q: Would you be so kind to go back to the photo with Coyote and the American flag?
Because I thought I saw Yugoslav air transport logo on the ...
yes, YAT, there you see it.
Simon: Oh yea, here.
Q: He flew with, now it's called Air Serbia...
Simon: That must have been the reason.
Q: Yes, it must have, I just wanted to check...
Simon: Sure, thanks!
applause
Herald: We have a question from the internet...
Signal Angel: Yes, frankie2 is asking, how does this
compare to today's surveillance?
Simon: The problem is, in a way, that is a
treasure trove, but it's a very weird one.
If I could decide, freely choose, what material to look at,
I would definitely look at, try to look at, the
last two weeks of NSA's surveillance.
Like we all would.
But, unfortunately, this is as close as we can get this kind of material.
But keep in mind, back in it's days the Stasi was at least as sophisticated as the BND.
In fact, they were more advanced in the technology they used.
And the Stasi would definitely use the same
techniques BND and CIA and everyone else uses today.
They would try to listen in on our phone conversations.
That might not be the right material to look at from a technological point of view.
But I think this material is very interesting and important
if you want to find out something about their
state of mind. Which is, absurd. And keep in mind,
the excuse you hear from the NSA,
they just want to protect the law, and that is why they break the law,
that's an excuse you regularly find with the Stasi as well.
And you find parallels, and that's why it's very important to look at this material.
Even though it's very old.
And back then, the whole archive, consists out
of somewhere between one and two million photographs.
Which is absurdly little, if you think that the system
was in operation for forty years.
That's fifty thousand picture a year.
They had 85 thousand agents.
From today's standards, that's nothing.
Today, they would be far more sophisticated I guess.
Herald: Thank you, we have a question over there, is that a question, yes.
Q: Firstly, thank you for your talk.
So, you showed that some of that archive had been
destroyed or attempts had been made.
But there was still much to look through.
What happens in future generations,
given that now surveillance is done all digitally,
you said the Stasi had a number of weeks from when the wall fell,
and they had time to destroy things,
given now how quickly and easy it is to erase digital
information, what do you say to people coming after you?
Future generations, who might want to find similar things
in dissolved surveillance operations. Are they completely stuffed?
Simon: Unless there is going to be a revolution,
they are not going to be able to look at anything.
That would be my guess.
Because you need this abrupt shift in the whole system,
that pretty much decapitates this operation. And so,
they lost everything, and now it is frozen in time.
So, the guy at the BND told me:
"It's up to us to decide what we reveal and what not, because we have a veto."
Of course, nothing is then revealed.
Ever.
So, as long as this stays the policy, and it is the policy currently everywhere,
from what I understand,
you are not going to be able to look at anything.
I am not very optimistic in that respect.
Next Question: How do you decide
what faces to anonymise, and which not?
Simon: Besides the Czech Republic archive… …with the Czech Images I did it.
With those images you can do anything and whatever you want, and that's weird.
And terrible, in a way.
With the Stasi images, the archive had to decide.
And they decided on the basis that once you work for,
in an official position, in times of historical importance,
- like that - you lose your privacy rights.
You don't share the same privacy rights.
So, once we could find written evidence
that a person shown in the image was working for the Stasi,
like him or her,
they lost their right of privacy.
If the slightest doubt remained, it had to be pixeled.
So it wasn't done by me.
German privacy rights are very strict.
Next Questioner: You said, when you talked about surveillance,
watching each other, that this would be the highest state of surveillance.
But don't you think that now there is a much higher state,
and also before things were much more clear,
everybody knew that there was a regime
trying to stay in power and trying to put down everybody.
But now, in a situation where they don't even have to break the law,
they just make it legal to surveil, like we can see in France,
now with the law on intelligence,
that passed just after the Charlie murders,
and now we got the murders again,
and you have people who have
to stay in their home, because
the intelligence has said that
they might protest, and they don't have
to go through a judge, actually making it legal.
And we are at a stage were people surveil each other.
Simon: That's Facebook today. - Yes, somehow.
*applause*
And the general problem with survellance operations
- I would argue - and I hope someone here is from the BND and they come forward
and I give a talk to them, because I would really like to find out.
So please, my email was there -
I would argue, is that this type of surveillance can not work.
What you are trying to find proof for
is a state of mind, is thoughts, is not something you did,
but some things you think about, or you might wanna do.
And photography - I am a photographer -
I know how bad photography is.
You were looking at images of landscapes,
where no sniper is visible, and each one of you saw it.
That's how bad photography is as evidence.
And this can be proof for everything. And nothing.
Q: They don't need photography now.
S: No, they use it.
Q: They just bring the paper to the prefect police,
and he says 'okay, they're dangerous', and tells
them they have to stay at home.
S: Ja, but they need proof or evidence for something.
Q: They don't.
S: Maybe not... Now you leave behind such a trail of evidence yourself.
That could be read somewhere in the future.
What happens in ten years, when in the US
like smoking, drinking isn't socially acceptable anymore.
What happens to you then, with your Facebook entry
that's twenty years old then.
It's a weird system, yeah, but… *shrugging*
Herald: We have another question from the internet.
Signal Angel: Somebody from IRC is asking whether you have tried
to contact other agencies?
S: Yes, like the BND, which was not very successful.
And regarding the spies taking pictures of spies I tried with the British archive.
I know these pictures still exist.
I know where they exist.
But... sorry.
With the Czech, I was asked by the Goethe Institut to approach them.
It was difficult and too lengthy to explain now,
it was very difficult working with them.
Language wise and because of the structure
of the Archive itself.
But they were very open, and if you want to do more research,
go to the Czech Republic first, because it's much easier to work with them
on a bureaucratic level, than with the Germans.
But the Germans are, in a way, more organised.
*laughter*
Well, they are Germans.
Herald: Your question:
Q: How hard was it to get the material, although it is not classified anymore?
How much time did you invest?
S: The hardest time was the waiting periods in between requests.
German bureaucracy takes forever.
But I am quite sure, I am from West Germany, but now I have a huge file in this archive.
Because they compile everything.
So they keep track of every picture you're looking at.
But the funny thing is, it's not hard at all, you can do it as well.
You don't have to be a researcher.
And the archive considers research a human right.
Which I learned then, and it's a very convenient thing.
There are some elderly Stasi agents who spend their retirement researching something something.
They can do that.
And the weird thing was, most of the pictures, no one had looked at before.
That could be proven, because they keep track of everything.
The process is lengthy but very easy
Q: When you decided to dig through the archive,
did you have to apply for a certain section.
or could you just walk in and say, show me all your pictures.
S: No, they were very open, they may have closed after me.
For them, it was strangely overwhelming, the amount of feedback they got
after my book came out.
And they want to be left alone, I think… (laughing)
You have to formulate it quite clearly.
Q: What exactly, your aim?
S: A theme. But for me, because it was new to me, and to them as well,
the topic, 'Surveillance and Photography', was very broad.
Now they get requests like 'We want to see what Simon Menner saw.'
They don't accept something like this.
So, you have to come up with something more clever.
Q: And how much time did you spend in their dungeons?
S: Well, it took three years...
On and off, but it's mostly waiting, in between.
Be patient.
Herald: Okay, your question.
Q: Modern state agencies, including NSA and BND, have this
mentality of 'Collect it all' passive intelligence.
It has this ability to minimise the impact and damage.
No human eyes looking at specific pieces of surveillance.
Of course we know that's not true,
and they can zero-in if they want to.
Doesn't this make it very difficult, as an archivist how do you
try to understand the state of mind, when you have so much data, unprocessed?
How do you get in their mind, filtering through, not no documents, but a hundred million documents?
S: One has to be very careful with such material, because you look through their eyes.
That can be dangerous.
That's why I try not to provide that much 'background information'
because, that would be text compiled by the Stasi agents.
So there is guilty and not guilty written in the text.
And I don't want to look at these pictures through their eyes.
But still I find it very revealing to look at the raw material.
And the Stasi would have collected all
if they had been able, they opened every parcel to East Germany, every letter.
Paranoia wise, they were several steps ahead of the NSA.
They had a university, and when you were studying there, you could do your PhD, but you
weren't allowed to keep your notes during the day,
they were locked away.
In safes with doors on two sides...
So they would copy them at night,
And you weren't allowed to keep your PhD thesis,
because it immediately became top secret.
And that really is paranoia.
I can not prove it. And that's the problem with the whole thing,
because one side remains closed.
And I guess they are quite happy with that situation,
they can still say, no, we did something else.
Well, we can't tell you, but it's not like this.
That is very vague, but I think the state of mind is the same.
Q: What is the copyright on these pictures? Are they in the public domain?
Can I use them for memes?
S: Uhm, no. *laughter*
Well, most are on my website in a low resolution.
Which the archive doesn't like, but it's there.
The problem is that: There is a law that covers the archive.
It's not like other archives in Germany. It has its own law.
And that was written in the early 90's by lawmakers.
We all know them and love them.
And they never thought of an artist coming along and show them.
So the law covers publication.
Once you got access to material, you are allowed publicize it
Nothing else is stated.
But you aren't allowed to hand over the files.
And I had lengthy debates with the Archive about what that could mean.
Since, when you have it on the website, you hand out the files.
But I said no, it's publicising it -- no, no, no.
So, what's the difference? Well,
we don't really know but, ahem.
So, it's tricky.
And so many people copied it from my website, so it is out there and gone.
Which I think is good.
Herald: We have time for one more question.
S: And I will be around, if you recognise my bald head, talk to me.
Q; Where you able to access files other than images?
Like audio from phone surveillance?
S: Ah, that is a very tricky thing.
You could listen to those, but getting them is almost impossible.
Because, German privacy laws again.
And their argument is, whenever you speak, you could reveal something private.
And that's their argument. Even though you might be Erich Honecker
or Helmut Kohl or something like that. But still it could be private what you're saying.
That's why they could never release them, and
you could not publish that, because it could be private.
So, it's a somewhat strange law. But noone is going to change anymore.
Herald: And the last question over here.
Q: I am interested from where you know what was shown by the photographs.
Were there captions like "spies spying on spy" or thought you about an explanation by yourself?
S: There are gazillions of km of files.
And just very few photographs, so there is always alot of background information.
And the greatest thing… and why I… people I am absolutely thankful towards
are the… - there were only ladies - working really at the archive,
handing me the files, giving me copies. Because the most important thing
- and that is always true working with an archive -
the trickiest part is, how do you find something you don't know exists.
Because you can't ask for it.
'I am really looking for ... is there a birthday party?'
You will never ask for something like this.
But once you've earned the trust of the people working there, they provide you
and provided me with these images.
Because they knew, in what direction I was looking for material.
There was in most cases background information.
There was one image I didn't include in the talk of a dead swan.
It's a famous set of four images.
It was only known that it was found in a vault owned by Erich Mielke, the head of Stasi, personally.
It's four images of a grave of a dead swan with a GDR flag.
That is very famous for being the biggest mystery in the Stasi files,
because nothing can be found about these images.
I didn't include them in the talk, sorry.
But it's a dead swan, very mysterious, must have been important. *laughter*
Herald: Thank you Simon, very much. Simon: Thank you.
*applause*
*postroll music*
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