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It is my deepest conviction
that in order to not lose the war
against Secret Service services,
pushing for more and more surveillance
laws all over Europe and all over the
world, we need events like this
to connect, to share and
also to support initiatives.
That fight for girls, but
really worth fighting for
and the next speaker did
something really, really
impressive together with friends.
She built an alliance against
the surveillance law in the Netherlands.
And they collected more than 400000
signatures and the next step
will be to start a referendum.
I'm really impressed and I hope
you are, too.
Please give a very, very warm
applause to Nina
now, Paulson's.
And
hello, everyone.
Thank you so much for coming on there,
and I hope you had a great Congress so
far.
So, yeah, my name is Nina and one
of the five students who organized the
referendum.
And I'm going to tell you all about,
like, how we did it and what's coming up
and what this will mean in the greater
scheme of things.
So first of
all, the law, because we need to know
what we're talking about here.
What does it contain?
Well, in Dutch, we call it the state
with which is a
bringing together of the word slightness.
And that's which means something like the
Dragonite law, because one of the
allowances in this law is that
intelligence agencies will be allowed to
intercept and targeted traffic
on the cable.
And that means, for instance, when you
live in Rotterdam and there is a suspect
living in the area,
then all of your traffic on the cable
will can be collected,
analyzed and stored for up to three
years, which is a really fucking long
time.
So that's one part of it.
But aside from that, they will also
get access to basically any
database imaginable, which is even
Real-Time.
So the government is saying this is not
a proposal about surveillance, like
with the snoopers charter.
However, in
implementing that many dragnets,
because there is not a maximum to it and
we don't know how big they will be and
they don't know what they are looking
for.
And also adding up to that, the access
to all these databases means that you can
collect a massive amount of data, which
in conclusion is there for mass
surveillance.
Another problem is that it will allow
the hacking of third parties, which so
if you have a terrorist suspect, you can
not just hack them, but also
their mom or the journalist that they
have been speaking to.
And obviously that leads to like hoarding
zero days when you all get way less
secure and so bad.
And they can also exchange
this data analyzed
with foreign countries.
And this is where human rights advocates
are really worried about because these
countries don't necessarily respect
our freedoms or our rights.
So, yeah, this is really bad
and its consequences. Well, that's
usually what I talk about when I do a
presentation about this.
But you are basically the community
who has taught me this.
So I feel like preaching to the choir
here. But just to go quickly over, it is
a chilling effect where you start self
censoring because you know that all of
your actions might have a consequence in
the future.
And obviously it's also a loss of
privacy. And privacy is such
a basic thing.
It's a really matter, right?
Like, you can't really have freedom of
speech or even freedom of thought if you
don't have any privacy, because
our online behavior is like a blueprint
of our minds.
And that's where they're going to pry
into and.
Well, yeah, you know, the story.
But that's that's kind of where I'm like
May.
So, yeah, this
was our our vibe and we
saw in the summer of this year,
the law got passed actually and there
was some upheaval about it in like
upper levels where lobbyists and
lawmakers are
making a fuss about it. But there wasn't
really like a broad public debate.
And we thought, what the fuck, we can
let this happen?
What's the thing that we can do now?
This law has already passed.
Well, if you're just a regular citizen,
the only option is to organize
a referendum. And so we felt,
let's do that.
So. Oh, yeah.
So
thank you.
And in order to organize
a referendum in the Netherlands, you need
to get 300000 signatures
on a population of 17 million
and referenda aren't really
like Salon for
the after Brexit and
after the Ukraine referendum that we had,
people tend to view it as a really
populist sort of bad tasting
subjects.
But we wanted to try it anyway.
And at first it went pretty well because
we had the first day we had like 5000
signatures next day, 10000 signatures.
But that was our little bubble, our
little like the hacking community and the
privacy people. And we got
a lot of support from a rather
controversial right wing
blog called Style.
And that got us up
pretty well at first.
And then.
Yeah, nothing happened.
It was just really quiet, but then we got
contacted by Amnesty International who
said, look, we've tried so hard to stop
this law and nothing worked, but we want
to help you out.
Like they actually got two airplanes
flying around the country saying, I'm
being followed and so are you.
And you need to protest on Slavitt now.
And they and a million
a million fliers which were all stacked
up in their office. And we went out to,
like,
hand them out in like markets
and such to sort of get out of that
bubble. It was interesting because once
you started talking with people on
the streets, they didn't really have an
opinion about it. There weren't that many
people who were just neutral, which
I kind of expected.
Yeah, this is us handing out fliers.
And yeah, so
but then it didn't really,
like, make massive change, and we
were we had six weeks and we were already
in the fourth week and we hadn't even
gotten 100000 signatures.
And that already was having, like, rage
fits in my room, like how these people,
et cetera, about privacy.
But it don't actually help out.
And I need more support.
Where is everybody and all these parties
that don't want to, like, touch the
referendum?
Then we got a message
from our Liuba, which is a comedian in
the Netherlands, really popular satire
show. And he said, oh, yeah,
you're going to be in the episode
tonight. So you might want to get some
extra servers were like, what's
so Lukáš and yoga?
I'm just spending time.
And during the episodes, he was still
busy with it and it was like
it was 18 minutes in which he completely
wrecked the entire law.
It was his message was basically,
imagine your doorbell rings
and there's two people outside and
they're government officials and they
say, well, hello, here's a nice
little box and it contains a microphone
and a camera. And we're going to install
this.
We might not look at it, but might would
you put him up? No fucking way.
And that's what everybody says.
And then, like, things started
rolling, like
the episode on his own, like, shut us up.
But then it also resulted
in the press considering us actual
news, because beforehand we were in this
catch 22 where he said, like, if you're
not in the news, you're not news.
But if we bring you in the news, we're
making you news. And therefore, we are
not neutral on the referendum.
Do so. We can't talk about you.
But after that, good.
So it sort of gave a push
for a momentum.
And this is this is how it went.
So, like, it's a really big stage.
This is our little
Hakkari privacy bubble that we have here.
And then this is efforts with amnesty
and all that and flowering.
And then there is the
episodes and just a
and you can also see the really the spike
like up here is where we
told the press we had 300000 signatures
and everybody's like, oh, wow,
let's talk about this.
OK, and
so things that we noticed during this,
because I think it's interesting to think
about what happens when you take the
privacy in the digital rights discussion
to a national level, because it doesn't
happen that often.
First of all, people do tend to give a
shit which was unexpected
as soon as you start talking about them
like it wasn't that much effort to make
them go, oh, yeah, this is a point.
And it was really different kinds of
people as well. You see, also,
there is not really a left wing or a
right wing focus.
So privacy is such a
fundamental right that it's like, yeah,
who's against freedom of speech?
Nobody.
And therefore, you could see that the
rules from every side of the spectrum
activities around this.
And I think that was also part of the
success because, yeah, we
have many differences, but it's
good to sometimes combine
them for.
A greater good.
Um, yeah, so
news agencies are doing a lot of polls
because they all want to be the one that
predicts what's going to be the outcome
and that what you want to see is
interesting, that people below 35
tend to be massively against this
law and then people over 65 tend
to be in favor.
And I think that's interesting because I
think as a millennial, like my entire
identity is based upon
what I did online as a teenager,
and that's like
where all my political ideas come from.
It's why I look like this.
But so it's a very intimate thing.
And then for people over 65, it's more of
over email machine and
sometimes get angry at Twitter machine.
So it's a it's a public sphere.
And that's also where this tension
is coming from because, yeah, we
kind of know the differences in
lawmakers and such.
Oh, yeah, and, um,
well, I find pretty worrying us like we
have these discussions with
politicians and stuff and it goes
like, yeah, but the algorithm this and
they're like, yeah, but a lot of truth in
this. And
what was worrying is that they said,
look, there's not really a problem
because we might collect all
of this data, but then as soon
we immediately throw away everything
that is unnecessary and
then you're all fine.
But to completely forget, that's
like big data and like the analysis
of that is not magic, that there is
actually an entity
looking at what you're doing and thinking
of what the consequences of that should
be. And therefore, there shouldn't be a
difference in the ethics
around it.
And there's both a comparison and a
combination of
glorification of the tech was
also there being a
ignorance about it.
I think it's a really toxic combination.
So going
on, I believe that this is this
referendum is about just more than just
privacy looking around,
you can see that governments and also
surveillance capitalists are saying,
look, you might have all these rights and
all these freedoms, but as soon as there
is a computer involved, you don't
understand it. So these rules that we
build up no longer apply.
And it's really dangerous.
And I think that people aren't
as fast to respond to it because of that
bullshit cyber idea around.
It's an.
So, yeah, and I'm worried that because
this is sort of like a baby version
of the whole the social credit
score, for example, and I really don't
want to go to such lengths.
And also because I'm really worried that
once we are there, we will no longer be
able to change it because the dissidents
will already be known before they even
know themselves. They are dissidents.
I think in order to make do this,
I think we need to make our movement more
mainstream.
So like, I kind of would
like to walk into the
Urban Outfitters and like next to the
feminism T-shirts and the and
to listen to is like, hey, I'm a privacy
activist and it's a horrible, like,
capitalist way of doing activism.
But it does sort of show that it's sort
of a broad thing.
And it's so important that we
also includes people that we completely
dislike
to make it broader.
And yeah, it's not just because
it's handy for ourselves, but it's also
our responsibility, because if we're not
going to do it, nobody else is going to
do it.
So as a community, we need to get out
of our ivory tower to, like,
change the system instead of subvert it
as well and also suppressing
its.
So where we are now,
we are going to have a referendum
on the 21st of March.
Yeah. And.
The state of affairs now is that the
government says it's an advisory
referendum so they can completely ignore
the outcome and they've already said that
they're going to do that. And I think
it's a stupid idea ever,
especially because I can see a momentum
growing where all these different groups
are getting together and speaking out
about it. So it would not just be
ignoring the entire democratic
process and the voice of the people,
but also hurting a growing
movement that will then lash out even
harder, in my opinion.
So they better not ignore it
a lot. Focus
and.
One other thing is that
I had this really naive still like a
little bit left of trust in the
government, in the system.
Turns out they keep saying that
this law is necessary because it
by the current law, it's not allowed
to intercept cable traffic.
And of course, I understand that you need
to be able to do that for actual terror
suspects. But turns out they've been
doing that since like 2002.
It is actual numbers for the number of
cable interceptions they've already done.
And it's a complete lie and it's a
narrative they're spreading out.
So that's a rather disappointing.
And they've even been repeating it so
often that at some point I just
started to shut up, that cable
traffic was already
true. But to be clear,
they're already intercepting cable
traffic, just not on target.
It's.
So what's next?
Yeah, we are going to container
ourselves.
Well, actually, you're going to die
and are going back to studying and Marlo
and Luke and I are going to campaign.
So something that's important to get
rid of is the whole the fake
privacy versus safety
idea, because it's it's just it
doesn't make sense. Like, your privacy
is a you know,
you have your privacy.
Privacy is a human rights.
Why do we have human rights to protect
citizens? What do we do when we harm
human rights?
The citizens are less safe.
So and it's not even effective and
a good thing. Also, again, credit to
Arianna Lubar. He introduced the term
tigerish Folbre, which is like
when a politician gets criticized, it can
be like, oh, no, don't criticize
me. It's because of the terrorists.
And I get away with that.
So that's a good term.
I would like to give that in the thing
and something to repeat
myself. But I want to include as
many different kinds of groups
of citizens to make this a broad
thing so that everybody can find out why
they should care about this law.
Aside from that, we also
started a foundation which at first was
just to like get subsidies for the
campaign. But like after this, we're
going to do like direct action stuff
against Massachusets to.
Oh, that's day ends.
And I'm looking forward to having a.
Thank you very much.
And so
I will say first.
Your question?
Well, yeah, thanks a lot for your
presentation actually living in
Netherlands at the moment, so I'm really
happy to see such campaign
organizing and I have a really small
question.
Did your support of other association
or punishment like the bits of freedom or
other in the Netherlands, but also
outside Netherlands for what you've done?
Yes, good question.
I forgot to say that.
Sorry.
Yeah. We're getting really good support
from bits of freedom, though, in the in
the campaign. And also Amnesty
International's ready for battle and
the Pirate Party.
Yeah. And yeah.
So there is it's also
it's it's not like we are the core
of this campaign.
It's really a decentralized sort
of thing. So everybody is just
there to
to do their own
thing. And I think it's really important
because I, I realized I
skipped a slide because I really want you
all to think
that nobody else
is going to do it unless you are going to
do it. So please all speak up
about it and talk about this referendum
also like amnesty and bits of freedom to
those individuals.
And if you are not
living in the Netherlands, it's also
important for us because we need
international support because the
Netherlands is really fucking small.
And when the prime minister sees that the
big boys like Germany and France are
talking about it and they will be have
a more incentive to actually do something
with it. And at the same time, your
governments might realize that they
won't get away that easy with such
mass surveillance. So everybody, please
be as loud as possible about this thing.
Yeah.
I have one second, we have another
question from the Internet.
Yes, thank you.
The IOC wants to know, do you have
hope that this surveillance thing will
go away ever?
Yes, I do have hope, otherwise I would
just sit in my room and be depressed, but
I think I'm an optimist, so I do think
it's possible. But I'm also a cynic and I
think it's going to be really fucking
hard.
So it's our responsibility to keep
fighting for that and.
Yeah, but I think it's possible.
I mean, like
200 years ago, you wouldn't think that
women would be allowed to have a life and
that changed as well.
So if they could do it, why can't we do
it?
The next question
I would like to ask a small thing,
because a lot of people are
talking about. No, no, we will only
keep the part of the disk of the
data that we question
not to comment, but
the they say
we will destroy irrelevant data.
But the point of big data is there
is no relevant data, so
there is no need for destroying anything.
So.
Yeah, no question.
OK, you know
what, all what a question is.
OK, I just wanted
to make sure the next
question there from Hrbek.
So I was wondering, you said
if the referendum was ignored, then
you would escalate.
Do you like what forms of escalation
are you thinking of and do you think
that's a good thing, escalating or
like I wasn't sure in your opinion
on this and.
Well, hope you're not from the RCD, but
no, I'm not.
Escalation sounds like very like overall
that I think I mean, more
in that sort of escalation in the public
debate because it's already having this
momentum where everybody's starting to
talk about this.
And now that because I believe
people might realize that they care
about this and they even have a voice
about it, it will become
a much stronger movement if
they ignore it. And if they don't, I
believe if
that answers your question.
Yeah. Thank you. OK,
for next question number two.
All right. Thanks for your work.
I promise. This is a question.
So in terms of escalation,
we see that once you get on the
news, the satire, the you know,
the Jon Stewart's the daily shows in that
guy who gave you all your publicity
wouldn't be the best way to get
mass understanding by the populace.
And backing you is to kind of have
sustained episodes.
Do you have a
a communication with with the producers?
Are you able to get a subsequent episode
and kind of keep that fire burning?
Um, well.
I feel like it would be sort of
unfair to just sort of keep actually
there were there was a group of people
who started writing them like, oh, yeah,
you really need to talk about this
episode and blah, blah, blah.
But.
I think.
I think it's more of a result of all the
hard work that we put into it, that the
episode was there and
and and also for
like it wasn't like that solved
everything. It was more because there was
so much going on that then you
couldn't really not talk about it.
So I wouldn't want to sort of
artificially and for sets.
I just want to like do a lot of shit and
then make sure that the right people
response.
Another question from the Internet.
Yes, I have a question from a Dutch
citizen.
Is there anything we should do except
voting?
Yeah, you need to to,
um.
The most important thing is that this
discussion keeps singing around and what
we noticed with doing the
signature thing, like, yes, you can put
up posters and do like the social media
campaign and stuff, but.
Clearly, if such a big
national discussion is really important,
that you actually talk to people that you
know, so if, for instance,
you have a community that people like to
listen to for you are a teacher or
I don't know, there's
people that stand in a church
like police, also reach out to your own
communities, these groups of people, and
also talk to your mom and to your dad
about this, because that way we can cover
the whole 65 plus area.
Next question.
Yeah, first, thank you for the
Superleague talk, also
perfect follow up question to the
question before I live in the
Netherlands, but I'm not a Dutch citizen.
Um, what are ways for me to
get involved and engaged with the
campaign? Yeah.
And.
Just quick, are you do you have like a
tech background
or something? No.
OK, well, we kind of need also
more because I mentioned the hacking
of third parties. We need more people
from our community actually to speak up
about that as well, because we have a lot
of journalists and human rights activists
and stuff, but not really the cyber
people.
And
yeah, we're setting up like maybe
if you if
you follow, like what we are going to do,
we're going to like make fliers again and
organize events that can be discussions
and stuff. You could also like organize a
discussion things there's actually still
subsidy's you can ask for so you can get
5000 years for individual campaigns
if you want.
Or maybe that's audience.
But I don't know yet.
Talking is really easy, but then also
maybe more creative things like events
and T-shirts and all that.
And then we also make like things
that we can hand out like fliers here.
Some fliers go stand in the streets and
hand out fliers and you're supposed to
put up the poster.
So, yeah, you can email us
and then they'll send you stuff
and oh yeah, somebody is setting
up a mail server right now, so please
don't mail now.
And we'll also put it up somewhere.
Next question number three,
and you sign online or offline
and what's the ratio between online and
offline seiners if there is online
signage?
That's what's interesting, because we put
up a website that's basically our main
thing, and that's where people could sign
online and that there
were a lot of people who also
basically what we did is you
have to hand in paper signatures,
but you're allowed to collect them
online.
So we got all these signatures and then
printed them on the forums.
The thousand signatures is a lot in
paper. We drove them to the other side of
the country, handing them back in and
they put it into shredder.
That was that's.
And then people could also send
them themselves.
And I believe there were about 10000
people who did that.
Also, if you were living outside
the net, you had to do so.
And it was also like it
was a bit of a paradox because we
had to collect a lot of data
like your your your your place of
birth and and your signatures.
And of course, everybody was really a bit
weirded out by that.
So we told those people like, yeah, we
can't do anything else.
But if you don't trust us, please just
write to the thing.
But what do you mean by shredder of a
con or a Twitter account.
Yeah, so they send
them all in and then it went
into their system and then they shredded
the thing.
So, yeah, a moment
of silence for the trees.
Next question is from the Internet again.
Thank you, Sleaford, and
needs to be updated.
For example, the 21st March is not
mentioned there.
Will the Web site be updated soon?
Yes, but
because we are moving, the website was
basically there to do the whole
signature campaign.
And it's not entirely clear what kind of
role it's going to play in the campaign.
But yeah, I'll update.
It is a good day, you say.
OK, next question.
OK. Uh, 21st
of March next year is also the date of
the local community elections.
Do you combine that, uh,
that activity together?
Because you have you can organize
local
opponents and parties for
that for your goal.
That's a good idea.
We're still thinking about the options
there also, because just like a lot of
political parties that are going to do
run a municipality campaign and, uh,
Slavitt campaign and
to be honest, I'm not sure yet on how
that's going to shape up together
with local. Uh, yeah,
of course. Yeah, that's a good idea.
And by that, you can mobilize
the international students in a lot of
the cities. Of course, we
normally don't vote.
Yeah. And can still have a role.
And it's. Yeah.
Thank you for your question.
Next question.
I need to thank you for your call
and talk about this.
Are there any people that might
be able to do certain stuff like
marketing and campaigning, have
experience with these kind of things that
you would be glad with the would mail
you or help you out setting this up
because you only have two months?
Yeah, I just like set up
the whole plan of the campaign and is
actually way more than I think we can
handle. Um,
we need to
we need a bunch of events that we are
going to organize. So if people have
spaces, can also be autonomous spaces
where we can do like
sessions with people, that will be good.
Um,
and we have a lot of campaign material,
again, that needs to be spread
out.
So that would also be nice for people
help their um.
I think those are the main things
maybe specialist in marketing
or technicians work.
I mean, you just told that there was a
mail server being set up right now.
Maybe people are actually experienced
enough here that would like to help.
Is it possible? How?
Well, I think.
I think OK, on the technical aspect of
it, because we got that down, but
marketing thinks it's mainly
I'm still rather nice and
all my friends about how the system
works, how government works.
And I'm just like, hey, we have a good
idea. Do what you want with it.
And then there's all the house of cards
kind of type that I don't understand.
So I'd like a lot of like to have
discussions about that with experts
for marketing. Actually, we don't really
I don't really want like a massive sort
of marketing
company to get involved because
it's it's very much a citizen's efforts.
However, feedback would be really good,
like having sort of discussions about
it because, yeah, we don't know what the
fuck we're doing, but we do have a sense
of what we're doing and like being able
to
go with people that would be
good. Maybe I will be drinking away
my nerves in the bar after this.
Just come to me.
Thank you very, very much.
We're running out of time.
So this was unfortunately the last
question.
I have another very, very warm
applause for this incredible
action.