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Welcome, Ari.
Oh, actually, one thing
I sort of don't have my notes here
they are my backpack.
Thank you very much.
Great. Now, I hope we are actually ready.
So let's talk about
it's about the making of a chip and I
started on see the slides here?
Oh, there we go.
Finally.
Great to see you all.
So we are talking about fabrication
of a microchip and integrated circuit,
not exactly cutting edge
technology, but is something
that could build us 80 to 86
now. Thirty four years old.
Thirty five years old.
Eight years older than I am.
But it has something like.
Oh.
It has something like hundred thirty five
thousand transistors, there should be
a Dilshad over here and I
hope the rest of my presentation
is not the same
because on my laptop it worked.
Um,
anyway, um, so
on on this day we have
so there's a die in here.
There are one hundred thirty five
thousand transistors and
the minimum feature size.
So the minimum size
that you have there
in inside there is one,
not five micrometers.
So that's already something.
So just let me quickly
give an overview of our field effect
transistor works.
So down here you have,
uh, the silicon
substrate.
And on itself, silicon is not very
conductive, but
you have two ways to make it conductive,
and one is to implant
charges into the silicon
and this creates positive.
In the case of the substrate or
negative charges,
and they can move around and transport
car in that way, and so you
see here that their source
region and the drain region, and they
are conducted by themselves, but
they are separated from the substrate
p region by the depletion
region where there are no free charges.
And so there is no connection anywhere.
But if you now turn on the gate,
apply a voltage.
Um, this voltage on the gate
here, it attracts charges
down here in the substrate
and these, uh, these
charges are the same or similar
ones then in the,
uh, surrounding soils and drain areas.
And so there is a channel that
can conduct current and you have turned
on the transistor.
And so from this, we see already
the things that we need to put
together to form transistors
and in the end to form a chip.
So we need to have a way to
oxidize silicon.
We need to place polysilicon.
That's the material of which the gate is
made of.
We need to do to implant
other charges into
the, uh, silicon substrate.
We need to put insulators because
later on, we'll, um, place
connections that consist of metal.
And we don't want to short circuit
everything.
And lastly, and that's
maybe half of it, we
need a way to pattern to form
the, um, materials
that we created there because.
Well, the the usual,
um, waste pattern stuff that
we know in the macroscopic world,
things like printing or,
uh, milling or molding, they don't
scale down to these hundred
thirty thousand features and not
down to this one micrometer size.
But we have a way to pattern light.
We know that pretty well.
And we also know materials which undergo
chemical reactions and
we use both of that to
selectively take away
or add um.
Layers of material,
so enough with the theory will
start to go to the cleanroom,
first of all, we'll, uh,
well put on Cleanroom Garment and
clean shoes and also gloves.
And this is, uh, in order not
to contaminate the room.
So we have all these particles
on the clothing that's
dead skin cells,
and we don't want to follow them
everywhere.
We also take the silicon wafer over here
and that's where we build our chip on.
So first of all, for the lithography,
um, that's sort of the answer to
the question, how we can produce
a pattern on this film of silicon, which
is in yellow silicon dioxide.
Sorry.
Um.
And not into
this silicon substrate,
which is green gray here.
So first of all,
you, um, code
the substrate with a layer
of photoresistor.
And then you put on a
mask, this, uh, selectively
blocks light in some areas
and other word households which light
can go through, then you
shine light here through this mask.
And this gives you areas
of photoresistor which
undergo some reaction, which makes
them soluble in
some developed solution,
which is exactly what you do.
You place it in developing a solution
which takes away developed, um,
exposed resist and
leaves the silicon dioxide
in some areas and otherwise
coated.
And then you can at last
make your actual step of
well, taken away the silicon dioxide
and afterwards, um,
dissolve away the resist,
and you have your hole here in your,
uh, in your wafer in the
silicon dioxide layer.
In the wafer.
Great. So.
Uh, let's look at the equipment and
the steps on detail which contain,
uh, which make up for the lithography.
So, um,
first thing is you code your
wafer and that, uh,
works by placing the wafer on,
uh, into the
spin coger.
Um, plays liquid, photoresistor
on top of the, um, wafer
and, uh, spinning
it quickly.
What happens here is that the
photoresistor that sits just the top
of the surface of the way for
this will stick to the
wafer, but the
excess wafer which sits away from
the surface, this is accelerated
and spun off the disk.
You can see here nicely droplets
that's been just off the disk.
And this leaves you with a very even
layer of photoresistor.
Next thing you need is the mosque, and
here you see an example mosque,
which has the patterns that you want to
transfer onto your device.
And this one has five times four
devices on them.
And in each of them, you can sort
of see the geometry
that you want to transfer.
You take both the mosque and
the coated wafer
to this mosque, Alina.
And, um, the important
part is here, the center.
Yeah, so in
this thing here, you put, uh, the
mask and this is the check where you put
the wafer.
And here you see a microscope,
so what you do here is
you, um, move you
can move the chalk, um,
and you move it.
Uh, so that it's bylined.
With the the mosque on top.
Um, especially
if you already have patents on
your wafer, you need to align
them to the, uh, patents on the
mask when you're fine with the alignment
and you have to be really careful there
because, I mean, you have details which
are one micrometer.
So you need to have
that order of accuracy
in placing the mask to the,
um, wafer.
When you're fine with that, you switch
the microscope to your light
source, and that's a light source
that, um, is.
Well, it emits ultraviolet light, it's
contained in this boxier.
Uh, it it shines ultraviolet
light through this mirrors here on
your device, partially
blocked by the mask, and so
you end up with your resist.
Um, Expo's.
To kick it up a notch
nowadays, you don't use these, um,
mask liners anymore, but usually the
STEPA scanners, their
boxes like this and you don't really see
what's going on there.
So what happens
inside is that the mask
is not placed on top of the wafer
anymore, but it is separated
by a lens.
And so there
you go, step by step,
uh, expose all the
chips that you have on the wafer.
And this gives you several
upsides, you don't need
several copies of your
pattern on the mask.
And it also allows you to
scale down the image here,
which sort of, um.
Takes away some of the will
necessary to have this
very small.
Um, structures well-defined.
But on the other side, you
you need to now move
the mosque and.
Also, the way for her, because you have
this, um, this
line of light.
And you need to do this with absolute
accuracy, so.
I mean, nowadays, the features
are just 20 nanometers anymore, and,
uh, so you need to have
the accuracy of these both movements
here. Um.
Well, just has to be perfectly
aligned.
So let's actually
develop to resist, and that's
now easy, you just put it inside.
Uh.
OK, next thing that doesn't work.
Sorry about that, so you just put
it inside a developing solution.
And this will
dissolve away the exposed parts
of the resistance, and it might
leave you with this thing here.
Um, so the
darker areas here, that's
areas where you don't have resist
anymore.
The lighter areas are
silicon covered with resist.
And you also see these crosses here.
They're used for alignment of
especially when you have, uh,
details already on there, you can use
them to align the mask to
your details.
You also see here that there is
quite a bit of, uh, uh,
contamination particle here, something
like five micrometers in size.
And if you imagine this would be here,
uh, abstracting this connection here,
then the device would be unusable.
So that's why we need to have
this level of clean, clean
uncleanliness inside
the, uh, clean room
in order to have working devices.
So all in all, you have the
resources taken away here
by the development step.
So it's gone to the actual,
um, material,
um,
actual, um, take
away of material and
you could use the WCH
etching process that you probably know.
No, just some liquid acid and just
put your, uh, wafer
inside of this.
But rather we use this plus matching
machine. So you place your wafer
inside of this.
And, uh, Flo
flowering inside of the chamber
and then ignite a plasma.
So the situation is now this.
You have Florian Ion's here
and they are accelerated to the wafer
below.
And etch in the exposed
side here, so.
Um, well, the oxide
gets away where it's not protected by
resist if you had used,
um, wet etching, so
just, uh, placed your wafer
inside liquid, um,
then you'd have the problem that,
uh, liquid etchings isotropic and
it would further go
and EDG, the oxide below
the resist.
And with this, uh, plasma etching, you
have the ions that just
go down here and have this really
fine motion and they are the resistors
capable of really,
well, covering and protecting the oxide.
So this gives
you, in fact, uh, better resolution
and that's why you're using it.
So need to, um.
Dope or silicone, now
this happens inside the
planter. And again, you can't really see
anything. So we are trying to schematic.
So you start with this iron source
here.
Um, this emits some ions which are
accelerated, fly
away into this magnetic field
over here. And this magnetic
field sends them on a curved path
and different types of ions.
They follow differently
curved paths.
So you have this sluttier,
which selects only the ions that you
want. They fly onto your substrate
and create.
Uh, and
in this case, they create, uh, negatively
charged wall inside your positively
charged, um, substrate.
You now continue to
grow a thin oxide
that separates your gates from
the substrate, and that's quite
easy, you just placed them into a
furnace, um, just
the wafers flow oxygen
to it through it.
And then, uh, the silicon
oxidizers and Sigatoka site,
so you can now vary in the thickness
by varying the time and,
uh, oxygen pressure and
also the temperature.
So next part of your gate, the actual
gate material, um,
this is deposited in one of these
chemical vapor deposition machines.
Um, so.
You see here that it's another
chamber, um, you follow
silicon containing gas through it.
Um, you have the
ability to heat the chamber with
these, uh, all these
heating elements.
And then whenever.
Uh, molecule of this gas hits
some surface, it gets converted into
atomic silicon.
And in case of the wait for this
now cover, you have now a covering
of silicon of everywhere
on your wafer.
So you need now to,
um, form the gates, just
etch everything away, you already know
this, uh, plasma etching
device.
So you take away the, uh,
the gate, uh, oxide and
the, um,
gate polysilicon everywhere that
you don't want it.
And this for this, you also
have for lithography step,
which I'm not going to show here.
Next thing is, you, um,
you construct the source and the drain
regions, and for this, you
already seen the ion implantation
machine.
And reform here positively
charges inside the
substract, you might wonder
why you need,
um.
That's why we have deposited
this, uh, well, of negative
charges first and then
continue to, uh,
positive charges, and that's
because actually there are two types of
transistors in, uh,
inside the chips.
These are complementary, so they
use either
negative charges or positive charges
to, um, conduct current.
And that actually gives you the,
um, the possibility
to actually switch things, otherwise
you'd have just turned on and you
need something to turn it off.
And that's the complimentary transistor.
You also have here,
um, the situation that you don't
need to talk graphy
to, uh, define the,
um, the regions which are
doped, but you just use the,
um, oxygen which is already there
and also the gates.
And so everywhere where you have,
uh, naked substrate showing,
you change the, um,
the doping by implanting
ions.
That's called a cell line process.
So you don't need to align
any, um, photo
lithography step to your existing
pattern. So this.
Um, this gives you much
higher accuracy because you don't have
any alignment errors
and, well, this
basically allows you to
scale down your devices,
which is obviously what you're going to
do.
Now we are nearing the end of the
fabrication, um,
we.
Have up until now, we
have working transistors, but they are
not connected really anywhere,
and while they are not very useful,
they are not connected.
So we want to place metal.
But until now, the,
um.
They are conductive part exposed
everywhere. So first of
all, we are depositing some
insulator.
That's again, done in this chemical
weapons chemical vapor deposition
chamber, but now not with silicone,
but with silicon dioxide forming gas.
And you see what happens here
from, uh.
Form a layer of insulator
and then afterwards.
Now you use a step of lithography
to edge,
um, holes inside
the insulator to actually,
uh, connect your gait
sources and drains.
Almost ready.
You know, um,
deposited the actual,
uh, connection there, and
this is the last piece of equipment that
I'm going to show.
So this is now,
again, vapor deposition device.
But this time it's the physical
deposition, physical vapor deposition.
Um, you load
this load log here, your wafer
transferred into the process chamber
here.
And turn on the deposition.
It's a sputtering machine, which means
that you have argan
ions which bombard some
material source.
And you can see here
that, uh.
Due to this iron bombardment, there is
the plasma blowing up and
this ions, they sputter
out atoms in all
directions and this
creates a covering of, uh, metal
on our wafer.
We, uh, so
we almost have a finished ship,
um.
We have basically,
hopefully a working chip, but
it's still we have several copies,
um, sitting on a wafer,
so we need to dice the wafer.
That means cutting it into, uh,
the single chips that we have.
And then we,
uh, put it into some package,
um.
Connected to the outside world, that's
by placing these wires
that you hardly see here
and then,
um, close the package and
well, then you have your chip
just sort of have to test
it, whether it actually works.
But, hey, you're finished.
So, um, what
would be different in
actual fabs?
So I mostly
showed your research equipment, which
basically works the same way.
But in industrial
fabs, you, uh,
basically have robots doing all
the work because, I mean, it's repetitive
work. And humans in
this process are well,
they they contaminate the clean room.
So you take the,
uh, the humans out of the clean room and
have robots are doing all the work and
then you're better off.
So, uh, this
sort of leads to that.
You don't see everything.
You just see some robot
carrying your wafer into the next,
uh, processed chamber.
All right.
And, um,
I'm now already finished.
Somehow this was much faster
than, uh,
in my testing.
So we can already have
Kunhardt.
OK, you all know the Q&A
game, there's four microphones,
please cue up behind them,
and if you're on the stream, our Signal
Angel will relay your questions
as our human interface device.
Um, so let's start with Mike to please.
Hi. Thanks for the great talk.
Um, my question is, can
you do multiple layers?
I thought there are chips with multiple
layers and I wonder how this
is done.
Yeah. So there are sort
of two answers to that.
So in new chips then
this one, you have multiple layers.
And this is done by basically,
uh, repeating these
two steps over and over again.
So the you
build an insulator and
then on top of that place, the,
uh, well.
Edge contacts and place the connections.
And nowadays you have on
the order of 10 Conexion
layers.
And I don't know if your question
goes on to three dimensional
flash ships or things like that,
but it's only the connections that
it's multiple layers.
It's not only the connections in CPUs
and stuff, it's only the connections.
Oh, OK. You.
Mike, No one, please.
Yes, good evening.
What kind of techniques could
you list that would enable
a user to check the
conformity of what was
printed on
a dice with the original
X-ray microscope?
Uh, electronic microscope.
Yeah. So what kind of technology do you
know? And we did.
And my second question, would it be
possible, according to you, to invent
or develop a very Low-Cost
technology that would allow all
of us to check the integrity
of the integrated circuits we would have
in our devices like
we do Ashar
256 on a
piece of cotton?
All right, so first part of the question
is how can we
analyze the functioning?
And this is really a really hard
task to do so
nowadays you're talking about billions
of transistors and they don't
exist on their own.
They live. So they they only function
through the connections in between.
And so you.
Can check whether the
fabrication produces
the transistors that you want and
how this works is you
while you first dissolve
the package and then
take.
Um, successive,
uh, micro photographs,
um, microphone, uh, not
microscopic images of
the layers, so you start with the topmost
metal layer and then selectively
etch away every layer.
And, uh, well, you basically
can reconstruct the layers that your
device is made of even.
Is it possible to ensure
that some parts were correctly
dubbed?
I'm not sure
that's possible.
I mean, the doping level, you
can actually see that the,
um, the semiconductor just
looks differently, OK, but
I mean, it's still
possible to, uh,
to just change the functioning
a bit and have completely
different, uh, functioning
of your device.
This is something that other people
actually have demonstrated, that you
can sort of change a couple
of transistors and
that creates a backdoor in your CPU
and attack.
Exactly.
And my second question.
Yes, ma'am.
Do you think it's a question?
Yes. Do you think it would be possible to
invent a Low-Cost technology to check?
Uh, no, I don't think so.
I think that's out of reach.
OK, thank you, Mike.
Number four, please ask one question,
please. Thanks for the task.
I'm just wondering myself how the photo
mask is going to be printed,
how this is working.
So you also, uh,
use some lithography, but this
time you don't use, uh, rays
of light, rays of electrons
and electrons.
You can very accurately,
um, shine somewhere.
You can make an array
of electrons go into
some exact location.
And that actually works with much
more precision than optical lithography.
You could somehow use this
to, um, create the
CPU themselves.
But this doesn't really scale because
you have just well,
it basically is very similar
to this old cathode ray tubes,
the big monitors that we have before,
the array of electrons going someplace.
But it's just one very tiny dot
of maybe 10 nanometers.
And you need to scan all
of your surface with this electron
beam and then you have
resist, which are sensitive to this
electron beam, change
their chemistry there and you can
dissolve the partially away.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. Number three, please.
Uh, hello.
Uh, why wait for
around one dies
square.
Um, that's.
Because, well, the, um,
the the wafers, they are cut
from the cylinder of,
uh, silicon, and that's one crystal,
um, and it's just the
most simple way of producing
single crystals in this big
size.
Um, I hope I can
open some this
square crystal complicated.
Um, I
have not seen growing of a square
crystal actually.
I don't know.
But I mean,
it's for it's
definitely more simple to have it in the
surround, uh, size.
Mike, number two, please.
Sorry, so you said the
lifeforce used for look and talk
graffitists UV, but
in the modern spoof, the
size of the dye is so small,
what lights off to what was used
there?
It's actually still ultraviolet
light. And that's really a wonder
how you can make patterns
so small. So they use
one hundred ninety three nanometers light
to produce features
the size of 20 nanometers.
And usually there's a
sort of rule of thumb
that says that you can only have
features half of the wavelength, so
a little bit over 90 nanometers.
And you use some techniques which
basically you
can overlap two
beams sequentially, the image
of two beams and uh, then,
well, multiple times expose
your resist.
And this, if done correctly,
can create smaller features.
Thank you.
Mike, number one, please.
So in the plasma etching, how do
they modulate how much material is
actually removed and is the photoresistor
destroyed at the same in the same step?
So first part,
um, well, you can control
and measure the currents
of plasma.
Let me check where the slide is.
This one here.
So, uh.
So basically, you can I mean,
these are also charges,
right, and you have
plates here which are which
have a potential difference and you can
measure the current through this.
And this will be proportional
to the, um, amount
of ions that, um.
That act on your device.
Uh, what was the second part,
is this destroyed in the same step?
No, it's not
necessarily, um, destroyed.
So you have some attack on the
photoresistor, but
if you have, uh, the photo is taken
off, you don't care.
I mean, uh, this is, uh,
sacrificial layer.
It gets to solve the way afterwards
anyway.
OK, thank you.
Mike, number three, please.
Thank you. Hi, I would like to ask
you about vertical stacking and just
mentioned and the technology of through
Silicon Valley.
How do you make the holes
in the chip?
I'd say also with etching,
but actually I don't know yet.
Sorry.
OK.
And back to one, please.
Uh, yeah, regarding just before
the small feature size, what I've heard
before is to actually do also photo
lithography, not in air, but in other
mediums. Is this actually true or not
sort of like underwater or
within a liquid where the wavelength
changes? Exactly.
You can use, uh, water.
And this says, uh, dispersion.
Well, it changes
the, uh, the the wavelength of
your ultraviolet light by a
factor of one four four.
And so now you have
one dot four, four times smaller
wavelength and you can image
things that are one dot four, four times
smaller. That's correct.
Yeah. But it doesn't it's
not the whole answer to
how can you produce patterns that are 20
nanometers with one hundred ninety three
nanometers wide.
Number three, please, I
have a question regarding the bonding
and a modern c.p.u, you
have up to the thousand contacts,
not to mention the letters,
um, it's
the bonding done.
And to that in a two dimensional
way as well.
Or is it squeezed around
the edges as
though it's done in a two dimensional way
nowadays?
So basically, it looks
somehow like your,
uh, bogert or a package.
But, uh, I mean, this migratory package
is also some kind of substrate.
And on the other side of the
spogli, you have a similar array.
And this time it's not.
Well, it's similar to solar, but it's
actually bonding Balts.
And you use
it while you put the wafer
upside down on this.
And, uh, bonders,
I actually,
uh, technique somehow like solar.
You heat it up and then the the
balls will attach.
Do we have any more questions?
No, then please think of speaker.
We have a bit of time left now.
Yeah, I mean, if you want to continue,
actually, I have a question myself
and this question was,
is it somehow possible to
recreate something like this process
in a sort of Do-It-Yourself way?
And I think it
actually might be possible,
so.
I think well, I mean, I'm
a physicist, so I think the
the most well,
significant step to this is
this, um, just for
the topography and
well, turns out
actually they sell,
um, devices that
create some kind of pattern in
this microscopic dimensions,
and that's called a Blu ray burner.
So.
Maybe we could use Rabenau
to create a pattern not
in a desk, but in.
Well, uh, photoresistor.
And that would be sort of the first
step that is necessary to
create, um,
integrated circuits of our own, which
are, you know, there
know, we can trust these things.
So because we have
develop them all of the way.
If someone wants to comment on microphone
one, please.
So that raises the question, what is
the size of a I guess,
the maximum size of a usable AC?
If one were to try to carry this at home,
how small would it have to be to actually
be usable?
Well, I mean, you saw this 82,
86, and this is, uh,
patterns of the size of one, not five
microns.
And I mean, Rurales
have much smaller in the order of 400
nanometers, small feature size.
So, well,
it sort of points in the direction that
you could create patterns
this size. And I mean, this would
create a functional if not very fast.
Uh, Chip. No.
He's nodding.
Mike, number four, please.
Um, if you want to create
a chip at your homebrew,
uh, equipment, how will
you do the doping?
Because I think you need some
kind of way cume for it and all
that stuff. And it's not that easy to
handle.
That's not the only part when you need a
vacuum, by the way, but, um,
well, you can just buy
vacuum pumps and
for the implantation thing, you actually
and that's how it was done in the old
days, you can just flow
gas over the, uh, the wafer.
And this will partially diffuse
into the silicon under the right
conditions. I mean, you have to, uh,
heat up the way for.
And then, uh, gas
atoms will diffuse into, uh,
the silicon.
So that's much easier than this
iron implantation device, but it's also
not as accurate, you
can control the doping to that accuracy.
Do we have any comments from the
Internet? By the way, I haven't seen the
signal angel in ages, OK.
Uh, my phone number two, please.
Concerning the self-made stuff,
what are the tolerances for the
thickness of the substrate of
the removing and so on?
Because if we get it within
like 10
percent or so, then probably we
can do it. But I don't know if I can do
it by hand with the accuracy needed.
Well, actually, that's what you need
for a photo lithography for,
uh, you don't rely
on the etching going
something like 20 nanometers
plus minus zero point one percent,
but you rely on the next material
being different and the etching
stopping at the layer between
the well, the the the,
uh, material change.
And so that would be actually easy,
I hope. Thanks.
At Magnon before your killing.
OK, go ahead.
So you're talking about
you making your own chips,
but I don't really think it would be very
economical or feasible
and reasonable way to make it
at home.
There are a lot of fabrications out
there. We can just send your design and
make it there.
Wouldn't it be more interesting to really
create a platform to make that more
affordable so we can just
order our own chips made custom
at the fab?
Actually, there are people who
actually more companies that go
into that direction, you
may have heard of one of these risk free,
um, processors out there,
um, I think they're called
sci fi or something.
That and actually one
of the things that they want to do is
offer, well, fabrication.
Um.
As sort of as a service,
I mean, you can if you're a company
and come up with your own design, you can
already, uh, do the manufacturing
as a service. That's one of the
well, basically all of the big fabs
offer.
But if you're just some
people, then, uh,
it gets easier, but it's still,
well, expensive.
We get Mike one, please.
Yes, I also wanted to comment on
making these chips at home and yes,
I agree it would probably be,
well, at least very hard to do this
because you would need to miniaturize
the equipment and stuff and it would need
to be cheap and
well,
if you could actually make
chips that small at home, you'd have a
lot of problems, I think, with.
Well, as you said, you need dust, free
environments and stuff.
And I
don't know, it might be possible, but
I think it's probably extremely expensive
or it would take a really, really long
time to mature the process
that much. And I don't think
it would have that many people in the
world interested in making their own
chips.
And if you don't have that
kind of economic factor driving
it, I don't think it would ever work.
And regarding the other
guys saying, well, you can just
send your own plans to the fab
lab.
Well, if you're talking about modifying
these chips or preventing the
modification of these chips and
preventing someone from installing back
doors, you can't really send it away and
be sure it's not modified.
I mean, you need some way to
actually validate that your chip is
not modified at all.
And as you said, you only need to change
a few transistors on a
scale of, well, 20 nanometers
and you have a back door and
you wouldn't be able to prevent that if
you just sent your design away.
Yeah, that's it.
I'm not really on the same
side of you, but we'll
just leave it as a comment, I guess.
Oh, yeah, well, I don't know if
you can answer, of course.
I mean, it just also as
a comment, I think, I
mean, I.
For for the fabrication,
I think for me as a person,
it would be extremely rewarding
to get to that
point, to have my own chip
made it sort of the the final frontier
of making. No.
Yes, yes, I don't doubt that.
I was just I don't know, I
don't I don't say it's impossible and I
don't say you shouldn't do it.
If you want to do it, do it.
You can do anything.
But, uh, well, there's
a lot of really high obstacles
to get there, I think.
Definitely, yes.
Yes.
And concern the other thing.
Well, it's you
it's much simpler, actually,
to etch a chip and then
see it to micrographs and
well, see whether it
sort of checks out.
So it's.
I think it's
quite hard still to
put a back door like that.
It's definitely much
better. You're in a much better position
than when you just buy some intel
chip.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, yeah, you would have to take the
intel chip apart. Of course,
I well, I got the impression it was
hard from what you said earlier, because
I understood that you needed
to take every layer apart to actually
verify it and not you can just use a
microphone microscope.
But if well, if you can then
of course, as well it's easier.
I mean, it's sort of both as true.
Uh, it's just.
You're not in the best position by
matching up a chip and then sort of
hoping that, uh, what
you want, what you're checking
resolves to, um.
Well, when your check turns
out to that, you're
actually fine, but it's also
well, the the other side is
not really a good point either.
Yeah, I just got an idea.
You could maybe implement some kind of
check in your own chip design to check
if it's been tampered with.
You know, some kind of check,
some what
the other guy who was a bit rude
said earlier, but,
well, not like on the hardware
level by implementing
some gates that
return a different value once your design
has been altered by a few transistors.
Yeah, but you need to prove that this
actually works out.
Yes, of course, it's also very hard.
I think there might be people who are
doing this, but I don't know
whether this has actual positive
results yet.
Yes, it's it's pretty interesting.
I'm going to go ahead and cut you off
now. Sorry, Mike.
No fall, please.
Am I
having at home? I'm not going to be
possible because of the vibrations.
You have been in the lab where you
manufacture them themselves and you
remember it's probably a vibration,
isolated or dampened basement.
And only your neighbors using the
staircase is already vibrating your
equipment so much that at modern
nanometer size, it's just not going to be
feasible.
For nanometer size, your true yeah,
right, but, uh, the the cleanroom
I was at was actually not
vibration free vibration dampened.
So I mean, we,
uh, colleagues of mine produced,
uh, pictures of
10 nanometers or so, and they are fine.
So this is probably not really
repeatable.
But, um, I mean, I'm
not really wanting to produce
20 nanometers, but I would be fine
with the micrometer size.
And I think at that resolution,
it's not that much of a problem.
My number two, please.
I'm asking, is it possible to buy
used equipment so something which
was used sometime some years ago
and some Fairpoint, which is now
thrown away because we have better stuff
for research equipment?
That's definitely the case.
But I mean, you're still looking, I
think, at a couple
of ten thousand bucks.
For us, it.
My sister.
I don't know, maybe other universities
which are not that well off.
OK, to again.
In case we could talk about
equipment like
rent equipment, would you be into
helping developing a
process for making
trips with this Blu ray?
Uh, let's talk about this afterwards.
So the thing that you
have to know is that we know each other
and, uh, well, there is a previous
discussion going on.
Uh.
Do you have anything to add?
Apparently not.
Oh, actually, someone had my number three
is I so
silicone is not the only process
you can use to make chips can speculate
maybe if there is a possible
future other than silicon,
either in silicon.
So for us,
produce chips, basically.
No, for processers, I think
Silicon will be there
for a while. I mean, you have
processes which enabled you
to communicate with light
to the outside world and
that sort of where
today's processor are, well,
reaching a boundary with electrical
communication.
So once this is
out there, um,
silicon based devices will be fine for
a while. I mean, sort of the
the next thing.
That drastically would change,
uh, once you go.
Um, for a while,
not switching based on charges,
but on photons while
everything changes, but I don't really
see that happening.
That's where your question was going,
right?
I mean, just as another
semiconductor material, so,
oh, the other semiconductor material, so
yeah, there are other semiconductor
materials, but
I don't think for
processing for for basically,
um, well,
data stuff, uh, there is something else
coming up.
I mean, for power devices, the
silicon carbide and
obviously for light emitting
diodes and stuff, you use, uh, other,
um, materials.
OK, someone someone's walking into a
microphone for
hour. Do you have anything to to
say?
No, I'm fine.
OK, then let's thank Ari.
Thank you for this great discussion we
had.
Also, thanks for the guy with the laptop.