Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/1010 Thanks!
[Music]
so I'm very happy to introduce to you
the speaker of this talk um the title is
the enemy which is
quite interesting obvious strange title
so it's it's really interesting what's
going to
happen
and
um um the man who's standing next to me
has been standing to
people which I wouldn't like to stand
next to probably and um I'm also already
afraid if this if I see them on TV um
he's been a photographer and War zones
all over the world for a long long time
and I'm very happy that he's here today
today please welcome and give a nice
Applause to Karim Ben
Khalifa that
works thank you very much thank you
Nikolai thank you Norah for inviting me
had to be here last year but family
events just prevented this so I'm very
happy to be here this
year
um I'm going to keep it silent and let
you read
this I've been a war correspondent for
the last 20 years I am Belgium Tunisian
and been a photojournalist so using my
camera and and traveling to as mentioned
earlier some of the darkest place in
this world I've worked for the best
magazines Vanity Fair
the New York Times magazine Le stern
here in Germany um covering um numerous
conflicts and with those magazines
that's what a photojournalist want to do
with those
magazines I've reached the best
audiences I mean in my
field they are educated they have the
right to vote they have a financial
power so those are the people I wanted
to talk to and present them with my work
through those magazines
um I even won some awards for my
work so I was exactly where I wanted to
be when I started so let's back up a bit
here why did I do this job and I'm often
asked the question why do you go to Wars
and why do you do so um I think in my
case I mean there always different
reasons but I think in my case one thing
was very instrumental in
bringing some curiosity about wars and
and and the
world I don't know if you know your news
it's a news channel every half an hour
you have the
news but they have a short program and
this is it no
comment and when I was a kid I mean a
kid when I was 16 17 18 I was fascinated
by the no comments and why was I
fascinated because for once nobody tells
me what to
think and I would look at it and I
wouldn't find I wouldn't know who's
right who's wrong the only information
in back in the days it was up in the
corner would be the date and the place
but there will be no voice over telling
me what's going on and usually that's
the big news of the day and that's right
before the news so I would find out
after what was happening and it's often
Wars disasters and um and so the no
common things the no voice over
triggered my curiosity and I started
looking at it trying to figure out what
was happening and then I was trying to
think what is outside of that frame that
I don't
see and that really created for me a
high sense of curiosity and
eventually I went there I went myself to
see what was outside of this Frame and
see what I would do so I wasn't doing
video I was doing
photography so that was years later that
was actually 20 years ago I was a war in
Kosovo was
raging and I bought a tickets and I went
to tyrana in Albania there I met with
young kids coming from the UK from
Switzerland from Germany young kovar
that were coming to join the Guerilla
and I made friends with them trying to
understand them motivation and then they
went through um training because of
course they were not trained to be G La
fighter and I went and I witnessed that
training and eventually I crossed the
border with them so those are the
moments where you start feeling are you
cut or not for this kind of job walking
through a minefields on a border with
Serbian snipers and really putting your
feet exactly where the guy behind uh in
front of you has put his feet
and then witnessing and and this was
August 1998 so let me remind you a
little bit about this war NATO came in
but that was in '99 and that was in
March 99 so I had about 6 months to
understand the ground understand the
people understand the situation and then
from there when the story became huge
because Nat was coming in because jonis
was coming from all over the world to
cover the first NATO operation ever
um I was ready I knew the place I could
move around I had
contact and yeah this was my first war
which leads me to probably show you some
photograph from
[Music]
that
and then there was
Somalia North Korea Yemen Syria
Afghanistan Lebanon I was traveling I
was working for magazines I was doing
the job I
wanted the war in Iraq was really
tough it was a
chaos I operate very well in
chaos but I think honestly I've seen too
much there I've seen too much violence
too many people died and it had a
profound effect on my ability to
work my problem was I cannot do anything
else and this is the second and last
slideshow I'm going to show you about my
work then tell you about what I do
[Music]
today
and then there was
Somalia North Korea Yemen Syria
Afghanistan Lebanon I was traveling I
was working for
magazines I was doing the job I
wanted the war in Iraq was really
tough it was a
chaos I operate very well in
caos but I think honestly I've seen too
much there I've seen too much violence
too many people died and it had a
profound effect
on
in
2009 after an assignment for Vanity Fair
in the Gaza Strip I was in Gaza City and
I had decided to stay a bit longer was
trying to find um what on of
story and I was with a group of um J
Islamic
Fighters and it was an open space it was
building around about yeah about that
space it's pretty big and there was some
trees and there was building around but
there was also one more thing it was a
huge Hall and this very characteristic
Hall of a bombing you know kind of a
cone upside
down and I was with the fighters and I
asked what happened
there and they told me that couple of
days before
earlier one of the group was wiped out
by
bombing from Israel of
course and I look at the
fighters and I found them very
young and I thought those must have been
the kids that were in Gaza when I came
here for the first
time so the circle of violence suddenly
appeared to
me and then I keep
thinking and I thought why do people
accept to be
photograph especially civilians why do
they accept my presence and me
photographing
them do they just want a witness to
their
misery or do they hope that witness can
actually change
something and I tell you it's the
later they think they hoped I could do
something there reality is I
cannot I'm facing a system the
media and with this Koral
contract and every time I was on the
ground after this I had this moral
contract coming up to my mind and I
realized it would be really hard for me
to keep doing
this and so with this kept
going this is The Impossible moral
contract I
couldn't couldn't
well I couldn't
simply
so the very same day I was
there and you've seen what I do in
photograph more wide angle try to be
with the people and in there I did
something I'm not a portrait
photographer but I turned my camera I
put it this way and I shot photos of the
fighters that I was there and I had a
recorder and I asked them six questions
who's your
enemy why did you ever kill
him what is violence to
you what is peace to you and where do
you see yourself in 20 years from
now I was trying to rethink my
journalism at that
point I went to South Sudan and to
Kashmir and this is what it looked like
on paper but in my mind it was not to be
put on paper it was to be put in a room
where those two enemies would look at
each other and I would draw a border on
the
ground and when you would cross that
border and go close to one of those guys
when close of the photograph of course
you would hear him answering the
questions and when you would cross the
border on the other side you would hear
his enemy answering exactly the same
questions so now let's go back to those
questions six questions very simple you
heard them before but they two kind of
questions the three first question it's
about the other who's your enemy why and
did you ever kill him the
three last questions about themsel what
is violence to
you what is peace to you and where do
you see yourself in 20 years from
now there was one thing as a war
correspondence going from one side to
the other I would always humanize the
people I was with and not because I had
to make this effort just because I had
human in front of me and you know as a
photojournalist you can only do
photograph but as a human being on the
ground you hear those people you hear
them talking about their family you hear
them talking about their dreams their
fears and they suddenly appear extremely
human and I was wondering how can I do
this how can I translate that and who
should see that if I do it that was
another publication foreign policy
magazine in the
US that was recharging my
journalism I tell you I've been
struggling with this work eventually I
did three parts but when I went to the
magazine that I was working with they
look at it and they says are you out of
your mind this is too
Arty says it's art Arty okay I'm going
to go to the art world and when I go to
the art world this is like you out of
your mind this is way too war and St
telling was like no that's not for us so
I financ it myself eventually the in
Paris understood it a bit you saw the
publication here and they helped me to
do the last
Parts but I was in a process of trying
to recharge my journalism I was in a
process to try to do something for this
moral
contract I didn't told you but I was K
out of school maybe you figur that out
already I was 18 pu out and something
beautiful
happens in 2012 I was invited at Harvard
University I'm going to make a little
story here but I called my dad I says
Dad I'm going to Harvard
University he says are you going to pay
for that well they actually giving me
$100,000 to spend a year there with the
kids H but you never managed to pass an
exam I was like there is no exam I don't
need to go through exams H I said did
you get an email I says yeah well that
might be Nigeria trying to scam you down
answer that email 3 months later my dad
was there with me extremely proud
because in my family we don't have any
education my dad didn't had a choice to
have an education I had but I was too
distracted let's put it this
way so I spent a year there and you
understood that I like to go where I
don't belong that's really part of my
DNA so there I went to the Harvard
Business School that's the last place I
should be was very interesting I spent a
year there Corporate social
responsibility I went to The Innovation
lab digital marketing strategies
honestly I didn't understand everything
they were talking about but I get one
thing from there the language the
language they're using very useful if
you want to T and talk to people that
can Finance your work from there
my luck wasn't over I was invited at the
MIT I finally stayed four years at MIT
and they helped me produce and think and
design um the enemy which I'm about to
start talking
about and that was in
2013 and 3 weeks into my fellowship at
the media lab we always receive
invitation for new Hardwares new
companies that want to demo their Works
they outside of dmit but want to bring
people from dmit
to show what they do and there I went I
was invited
to meet people from a small company
called Oculus it was still small back in
the days and that's the guy right before
me I was like my God I'm like I'm I'm
low Tech it's not the opposite of L I'm
like really I was like this is weird
what my turn after and because I've made
you a few confidence I'm going to make
one more I have vertigo I can go to a
front line but I have vertigo and I was
really unlucky that day because when I
put this I was on a side of a mountain
well I was sitting at MIT but I was on
the side of a mountain I looked down and
I felt the vertigo coming in Me 2
minutes remove the headset I don't like
to have vertigo so I removed the
headsets say thank you very much I
walked out I didn't walk out for a long
time I came back 15 minutes
later and I tell them I have this
project it's called portrait of the
enemies it's two photograph there's a in
between well let me catch out that can I
put the people in a room would that be
possible with that
technology back in 2013 they were like
scratching their heads say I guess yeah
that should be possible might be very
expensive but this is possible at that
point I had zero funding I didn't really
have a project I say I don't care if
it's expensive we see after but can we
do that okay so I started investigating
and and started thinking about what it
would look like and
definitely I was really interested to
see what would happen to journalism if
the people I meet are actually in the
front of the audience because right now
you're figuring out who am I through
what I say but also through my body
language and what would happen if you
got those Fighters right in front of you
not threatening you just answering the
question you know about what would
happen to J
pleas I'll tell you
[Music]
after you're too close to
really
[Music]
the enemy was born out of my frustration
as a photojournalist and War
correspondent for almost 20 years I have
photographed conflicts and witness the
consequences of huge geopolitical
shifts
[Music]
when I became a father I simply knew I
could not keep working on the front
lines yet I was not down trying to
understand
[Music]
[Applause]
Wars
[Music]
my friends in Israel when they know I'm
heading for Gaza can help themselves but
to wish me luck and to stay safe they
believe a lot of people in Gaza are
irrational also when I spend weeks
working in Gaza and I'm about to return
to Israel my Palestinian friends are
telling me the exact same thing
be careful
there the project is rooted in my
experience as a war photographer going
from one side of the front line to the
other and finding that the fighters
dreams Hopes And Nightmares are often
more similar than they are different so
there is a bigger story than the war
itself and this is the one I want to
explore and
share for for the enemy I am using the
latest Technologies in Virtual and
augmented realities so you can engage
directly with the combatants and meet
them hear them and feel them the way I
did in many part of our worlds you
create an enemy as a kid without having
met your enemy because a society around
you has created an enemy in the
other so the question is could I be you
if I was on the other side
[Music]
so from 2013 it took four years to do
that because it didn't existed there was
no way I I had to go to Gaza I had to go
to Salvador to Congo I needed a portable
Studio I needed you know we heard of 360
videoos I do the opposite I do 0 degrees
all the cameras are pointing at my
protagonist recording every single of
their move scanning their body making a
lot of photograph and then rebuilding
the whole thing nothing like this
existed so we had to kind of play around
and I surrounded myself with the people
who can actually help me doing
this
and trying to get engaged with
journalism in a very different way and
trying to push the boundaries of what I
you my idea with this also
was this moral contract you remember who
should see this work who can have an
impact if they look at this who can
change the situation and obviously it's
great to be in New York or it's great to
be in monreal or in Paris or in Germany
but the people who can really make a
difference at the next generation of
Fighters so we've been working and
trying trying to push that there as much
as we
could I need to say thank you to C Lua
it's a production company they had no
idea what they were going into I had no
idea neither and they sticked with me to
the end and it took four years and then
all the other partners and interestingly
enough there's not a single media in
this there not a newspaper or
magazine but those are organization that
care about journalism and as me want to
push it a bit
further we talked about this maybe I
should show you a bit what it looks like
inside for give you an idea because I'm
not bringing you to Gaza or to Salvador
or to Congo but I bring you the
protagonist that's just short
extract it's a 300 M Square installation
it's multi-user 20 people at the same
time you walk the space and at some
point you end up in between two fighters
you're going to make a choice who are
you going to listen first what is your
name what is your rank in your art
group my name
is I'm a soldier and I hold the rank of
Sergeant I entered the conges government
Army in
2002 and I'm now 30 years
old who's
your and what does it looks like from
the
[Music]
outside
backpack tracking system all of this is
super expensive of course not only the
hardware but to produce what was inside
but you got 20 people and nobody's
touching each other because we created a
transparent Avatar with an Oculus so you
see the other users they're absolutely
an interesting so you keep on being
focused in the
content but this is heavy to move and
expensive to move we have do all this
content and so I proposed at some point
in the project to reach this new
audience the Next Generation fighers to
create a documented reality app that
people could download that would be for
free on the App Store in under store and
where you would have the same content
and where you could listen to the same
interview so at the end you'll see the
website of the of the project and from
there you can get a link and download it
if you're
interested and um then suddenly we can
bring this in different places I mean we
don't have to bring it the people are
taking it themselves it's the French
version of the
[Music]
app
[Music]
forour
Sal
and we were right to do this the app has
been downloaded in 102 countries and of
course I could not bring the VR in 102
countries and it's very interesting to
see that suddenly organization working
on reconciliation are using the work to
trigger the conversation and I think
journalism doesn't need to be exactly
this but can also be that and so for
people that are less experienced I mean
I think this room is literacy in in
media is really
high but what if you
bring young people from Congo in the VR
they're going to be lost in this they
don't have the same literacy we have but
if you bring on an iPad or on a phone in
his own surrounding in his village or in
his City his enemy there where he is it
becomes extremely powerful and it
triggers conversation and when those
conversation are followed with
reconciliation or peace building
organization then we start moving a bit
further and journalism can have
that lesson learned guys I've learned a
lot of things doing
this I start by saying um I think
journalism is extremely important to
bring another point of
view and when we see what's happening in
the world today journalism is more than
ever very important and I'm committed in
my own capacity to innovate and push the
boundaries and try to find
solutions for younger generation to be
you know taking journalism and as a
matter of fact when we've put schools
through the 50 minutes experience of the
VR and for 50 minutes they're listening
to those people and they're coming out
and they've understood it without a
Snapchat without being interrupted with
their phones 50 minutes it's something
that we don't see so much anymore
especially with younger
generation they said um we really need
to experiment with journalism and this
is what I've realized by pushing
boundaries and see what sticks on the
world what works what doesn't Works um
and what I like to say is the
frustration that I had in my work have
become my engine to try to change the
things I've also started thinking very
differently now I know we're in a like
Hightech kind of a conference but for me
the story first who do you want to tell
the story to and what would be the best
medium to tell that story when I was a
photojournalist it would be exactly the
other way around the medium would like
that's it magazines and then the
audience we know who they are and then
you you push a story through that tube
um I completely Chang that you now you
understood the 300 M Square installation
where you need to walk where you get
closer to the fighters they engaging you
in the eyes they staring at you they're
talking directly to you even though I'm
the one who asked the questions um but
if you think about it journalism is very
passive you turn the radio in your car
in your kitchen you read the magazine in
a comfortable couch you turn the TV on
maybe in your bedroom or in your living
room but it's passive I mean beside the
fact that you turn it on then boom it
give it to you this is becoming active
you going through 100% of what I wanted
to tell you but you're doing on your own
terms whenever you want maybe you want
to go and listen to this guy first as
opposed to the other one and
that's change
something fundamentally in journalism
and in my work and I realized it as I
was doing it and so I quoted this phrase
wrote
that
people are talking when they leave the
enemy they're talking of an experience
they're not talking of a storytelling
they have the memory of having met some
people and I find this is very
interesting because an experience is
stronger than a story and for a
Storyteller is good to find out now the
challenge will be to create more
experience in which people are feeling
the same things but it's very
interesting to to work in that
directions the enemy calls on your
instinct and and and the instincts makes
you feel the
experience so what happen when
journalism becomes an experience I'm not
really sure I don't know how that
affects your memory I don't know how
much that change your point of view the
only thing I can tell you is the debrief
I have with my audience and it's
very very interesting I have a testimony
that I'm going to put in a few seconds
I'm getting at the end of the of the
talk you remember that sentence at the
start I put it again in
here
and for
on
and that was a presentation in in Israel
and it was fascinating to see young
Israeli walking towards Abu Khaled the
Palestinian fighter from Gaza because
they cannot do that anywhere there's no
way they would kill each other one would
shoot but they're listening and going
and the physicality has really become
that to an experential level and this
young man is in the military and
suddenly has another point of view and
suddenly realize the other one is way
more Sim ilar than he thought or that he
been
taught thank you very much this is the
end of my talk and I think we've got a
few minutes of
[Music]
Q&A thank you so much my
pleasure
so I still got shivers spine
sorry
amazing okay do you have the chance to
ask questions please just go up to a
microphone and um be patient I will call
you up as soon as I can and I have first
question over there at number five
please your
question hello oh yes thanks for the
talk thanks for the work first um it's a
bit of a na question
yeah yeah I see you sorry yeah no
worries that yeah I was wondering how
how to make it as efficient as possible
so you were talking about who the
audience is and I was wondering should
it be um the next generation of Fighter
um the person who
is inviting them to become a fighter and
then I thought okay that's in very key
places now but um I'm French I was
supposed to be doing um military service
if I wanted to but I cannot imagine
French military when I have the
possibility to decide to do military
serice or not to show me an experience
like this of course I wish they would
well a little anecdote and maybe that's
going to help answering that question
when we presented in
Israel at some point my team comes and
says Karen there's a couple of
militarist there in the line to do the
enemy what do we do I was like what what
do you mean what do we do let them in
it's it's a pleasure to have them in and
they worked for the Israeli Defense
Force
Academy they went through we obviously
very impressed was a young guy and an
older guy and the young guy takes me
apart and
says you know I'm human too but he says
that really away from his bus and then I
talk was the bus and pushing that a bit
further seems interested and says you
know it would be a pleasure to bring
this to the academy that's really
bringing a wolf into a sheep
house and they give me honestly the best
compliment I could have from the
military that says we're not in the same
business meaning I'm rehumanizing and
they need to make sure that gillad shoot
Abu
khalit um and that for me when the
military says that I think I'm on to
something interesting thank you for the
question yeah thank you okay so next
question I'll start from the back I have
seen you number three please hello
thanks for your talk uh it's an amazing
work I'm oh oh yeah Okay cool so still I
have a sort of critical question um
please first of all I think it's an
experience when people experience the V
but before it's experience it's still a
story right because you as the artist
creates a story for the people to have
an experience so it's still a story just
a different kind of te technological
possibility to participate or to view it
or read whatever engage exactly so my
question is um I'm wondering and this is
a general question I have uh concerning
this kind of VR and the idea of being
able to force experiencing empathy with
VR so my question is is isn't there a
danger in that sense that now I can only
engage in the story by being part of it
and not by experiencing the other as the
other so empathy is not about feeling
something for the other person but it's
just always something I can feel and I
can act on as being part of it and I
wonder whether there is a sort of danger
in there I see the possibilities but I
still wonder whether it's more a more
kind of EG even more egocentric point of
view
afterwards I I I think there's two
things I want to say about this first
one I don't use the word
empathy um thing is I started using it
with this work and when I was at MIT MIT
being in MIT I started talking about
this and I discover as of today
scientifically there is seven kind of
empathy you carry some empathy that
might be different from the person that
is next to you maybe he's got more maybe
got less that's a carial empathy
situational empathy contextual empathy
there is a lot of things and I even tell
you the worst is you can go the opposite
what you want it meaning you create
empathy for your own people against the
other so there is a danger using this
words I'm using a word that is much more
charged in terms of religion but by lack
of a better one it's Compassion or
altruism um and trying to bring this to
the to the people um but um so that one
one thing and to really clearly answer
your question I
think yes of course it's hardc it of
course it's a story you're absolutely
right I'm not pretending it's anything
else than this happened that the story
has become experiential and I'm not
saying this that's my audience that says
that um and there is a danger of course
but if you think about the TV and how it
has brainwashed millions of
people
well yes no still use the word Couch
Potato I mean there is a lot and if you
look if you go I'm not going to
stereotype here but if you go in the US
in the nutel and you start zapping my
God like what is there that it really
brings a critical Minds what I'm trying
to bring here is the critical mind is
put the position in between two people
where people I'm not telling them who's
right and who's wrong I let the audience
decide what they have to take out of
this uh and to finish answering your
question yes of course there is a danger
because if you can do this you can do
the exact
opposite and I have way less budgets
than you know armies the US Army the UK
Germany Germany
sorry um Israel or whatever thank you
for your question I hope it helps
okay
thank you very much for your talk um uh
one question you're bringing together
the people uh they see the enemy not as
their enemy anymore and uh this might
actually I would say prevent uh further
uh animosities but what about the
governments or the the parties that
actually want to lead this war did you
ever have problems with them um that was
one of the reason we also moved to
augmented reality because they can
prevent us from coming in the country
with the VR installation but they'll
struggle a lot to stop the app being
downloaded um and no no I'm I guess I'm
not such a danger anyway you know what I
mean not going to stop those Wars
neither Congo neither the Salvador the
Maas or Israel Palestine now let's let's
stay humble here I'm trying to
experiment with journalism and see what
happened when we do this um but no I
didn't had any so far trouble with um
with governments I'm going back to
Israel in a couple of weeks maybe we'll
keep in touch and I'll let you
know thank you okay um number eight
please number eight where is number
eight hi how did you create the avatars
used for the people you interviewed did
you digitize them or did you create them
from uh photos or
something so I didn't do it cuz I'm
really bad in technology but my team did
and the way we do that is uh we scan the
body um we use different techniques
along the conflicts we did one conflict
each year first one was Israel Palestine
the second one is when we went to uh the
DRC Congo Eastern Congo and then the
last one was Salvador we used because it
was a year apart and you know those
Technologies are moving fast we used
different techniques on the way but we
basically scan their body so we have the
proportion their size how how they are
we make about 100 photograph we put them
all on this and then protagonist is not
moving and then from there we reanimate
everything and this is I guess where
most of the the money goes uh it's to
reanimate based on all the videos we've
got from the interview so we know when
they close their eyes we know when they
move uh when they put their hand down
all of this and we recreate second by
seconds everything they've done the only
Freedom we allowed ourself is the fact
that they're looking at you so they
they're engaging they're not engaging
you all all the time it's straight in
the eyes uh but they do about 60% of the
time they're talking to you directly um
and that's the only U kind of freedom I
took uh to bring a level of Engagement
with my audience thank
you okay number seven has been waiting
so patiently please um so people uh
usually say that virtual
reality is a ultimate empathy machine
and it is quite naive but um your work
seems to show that immersive media is
definitely something that is very
beneficial for journalism itself however
I would like to ask you how much you see
that the novelty of the medium itself is
one of the big factors that drives uh
the impact that you can create with your
um work as you know when we we used to
see television or radio uh news and we
somehow filter them we just seen too
much stuff on the TV but people have not
been that often in those immersive
experiences do you think that we um or
you as a journalist need to continue
adapting new matters over and over again
like volumetric video and more and more
and more to keep this engagement what do
you think that when people say you know
it's a ultimate empathy machine that
this ultimate is exactly where we need
to go and we don't need to go further
with the technology and everyone just
needs to switch to immersive media and
everything will be just fine and
journalism will be fixed forever no I
don't think so um I don't think I think
it's very naive to say this is an
empathy machine because you can do the
exact opposite also you can reinforce
stereotypes um and um is this the future
of Journalism no I don't think so
neither um but it's interesting to
experiment it's interesting to see how
audience are reacting to this and going
to the novelty of the medium of course
I'm not sure it will be that efficient
10 years from now when people are much
more used to virtual reality and virtual
uh reality environment uh and intera
actions uh but for a lot of people it
was the first time they were doing
anything like this not the first time
probably they were doing VR some of them
of course uh but at least the first time
they were really having a meeting
meeting I'm careful with my word here
but the first encounters they had in VR
with someone engaging them directly I
think it always makes a difference when
you know what you're looking at is real
and that's why it's label journalism um
in a way that those six men's exist
they're still uh alive um and they're
active Fighters they're not um they're
not generals or whatever they're like
the fot soldiers they're not the people
who think the war they're just the
people who do the war and uh and in that
sense I think the novelity of of the
medium has really helped the work not
only getting produced but also having
the impact he had on the audience uh I'm
not sure it would be the same um 5 or 10
years down the line but this I don't
know what's happening in 5 or 10 years
down the line maybe other things will
come definitely sensory media and and
more sensory things adding will will
enhance your experience but again we'll
we'll get used to everything
eventually okay so we just have 10 more
minutes we need to speed up a little bit
um I've seen you I will take your
questions but I'll go to the back at
first number three please hello you said
you felt obligated to help the people
you photographed and my question is uh
do you have any evidence that this is
more helpful to them that if you put the
same time before money into some
ordinary
charity I don't know how to answer that
question honestly I think those are two
different things and two different
motivations um I'm certainly think it's
valuable to help and to do
charity
um but I think we need to innovate and
and if we all the money of innovation
goes in charity certainly we'll have a
much
more better World in a way that
everyone's got bread and and work but
that doesn't means we moving forward I
don't know it's it's it's really a hard
question to understand uh and and to
answer um is it better to invest money
in journalism or is it better to give it
to
charity I don't know maybe the audience
has has an answer about this but I don't
actually but thank you for the questions
anyway sorry fair enough okay um now Mr
Mr microphone number four please hi hi
um I have a question about the
completeness of the last episode of your
work because you've shown an Israeli
soldier um U sorry a guy before is a
soldier answering uh questions after
seeing the video and I was wondering if
you have a similar video of showing
somebody from the other side as to
complete complet that
section I don't because I was really
working hard to bring it to
Palestine
and not to say that I bang against the
wall to make a
bad but the Palestinian didn't want it
to have
it and I really went to the most liberal
people to the most open-minded people
and they were not willing to take the
work they understood it
um their words was
listen I don't see how we should right
now um be creating empathy or compassion
for the other side they are the strong
one they are the one who maintained the
occupation those are not my words those
are their words but at the end of the
day I mean and and congratulation to the
Israeli side who's much more open-minded
and accepted to challenge whatever their
society allows that to bring it there
but I've been struggling with um with
the Palestinian side same way I have
libanese friends who says oh we would
love to get that and when they find out
there was an Israeli in it is like
forget about it we cannot bring this in
beut um so yeah I mean there is numbers
of issues and political issues that are
beyond my capacity to to bring it there
now this said I know the app has been
downloaded a lot in Palestine but it's
not the VR thing and I don't have
testimony of Palestinians um telling me
what they think about it
thank
you okay so um number two is very
patient I know they're very patient
number two please thank you you
mentioned that moral contract repeatedly
so I would just be curious to hear what
exactly does that consist of for you
what does that moral contest priz okay
so maybe haven't been very clear about
it when you are underground and you
photograph civilians especially
civilians I mean army or guerillas have
always form of an agenda they want to
show who they are and kind of we're on
the good side of History even though
they're not
always um but when you photograph
civilians in the worst time of their
life
imagine I don't know where you live I
don't know what you do but imagine you
going through terrible events in your
life and you see a journalist with a
camera come would you appreciate to be
photograph at that time no so why do
they accept
it
and this is my questioning and that for
me becomes the moral contract do they
accept just because they want to show
the misery in which they are which you
just said no I wouldn't want to show
that or do they hope that actually that
witness bringing this to the media would
affect their
situation and that for me becomes the
moral
contract thank you very
much okay we don't have so much time
anymore I will take question number two
question number one but first the signal
angel thank you and the rest I'm sorry
thanks uh yeah the question came up
whether uh the installation can still be
visited and uh if it's still on the go
it's still on the go it's in Geneva uh
we're working at bringing it in Berlin
in 2020 we need some help so if someone
has 300 M square and willing to welcome
us we'll be happy to come um and we're
working on a South American tour right
now translation in in in Spanish um the
thing is because it didn't exist it
before we need to kind of educate a lot
of the places we're going into because
you got a tracking system you need a
technical team um it's not that easy and
you have a lot of computers Hardware U
so we we more aiming at museums and and
institution that have the capacity to
welcome such a thing but even those
institution are struggling because it's
Hightech um so that's part of the thing
we trying to to to help the people we
had zillions of proposition but we had
zillions minus numbers of time where we
did present it where said like it's too
complicated guys I don't know how we're
going to deal with this um so of course
I mean I guess most of you would be able
to deal with this CU you're educated in
this but it's not a case of museums
which usually are are kind of old and
and and and more towards the past but
there is an interest and I hope more and
more will if not the enemy some some
other works
thank
you
okay microphone to please thanks um
thank you so I've recently helped to run
a study where we used a very similar
setup with virtual reality to um and we
showed that you can use that to induce
empathy but that with that empathy comes
along a reduced ability to um what
psychologist call perspective taken but
essentially it means you get worse at
understanding that the other person
might have different perspective and
knowledge and experiences and because
you kind of like blur the boundaries and
that kind of like gives the worry that
you know something like this gives you
the sense that you've understood the
other person um but that understanding
might be misleading because you know if
if if I were to look at some some
fighter they I might get a sense that I
feel them and I feel like a connection
to them but they have had very different
experiences um that I don't really know
about don't have access to so can you
maybe speak to that worry of the
misleading sense of understanding in
your work
um of course um I think the worst that
can happens is to be extremely extremely
impactful and efficient and that that
person that has changed perspective
let's say it it does really happened
goes back to its
community and the community hasn't
changed but he has and that can be
extremely problematic because suddenly
he's like well but you know what they're
also human puff are you out of your mind
no they're not uh because he's Chang and
the other one not um so that for me
that's but that doesn't really clearly
answer your question but that's that's a
nightmare situation for me when you when
you try to be impactful and sometimes
you are you can also bring people into
trouble because they've changed that
perspective and
um I don't know if
uh the the efficiency of
it is not really bringing the others
perspective I don't think I mean we we
should extend that conversation to what
is true and what is not we all construct
through stories or through interaction
human interactions an idea of who's the
other um in this case I think I've done
a system that is very simple the
question is similar and you know those
are active Fighters and I hope that the
sense of agency that is offered during
the installation and the choice you make
Appeal on really
your own Instinct and then you walk out
of this with more question than you had
before you walked in and um and that is
really my intention in that sense is I
want as a journalist I want people to
think or to rethink uh their relation to
the other I'm not here to really tell
them exactly what they should think so
in that sense I let the let the user and
I would love to do a neuroscience study
which we we're working with an Israeli
um neuroscientist to put the two groups
in it the Palestinian Israeli and see 6
months or a year down the line if they
change perspective this I don't have the
answer and I would love to to find out
if there is really a conceptual change
first a conceptual change of perspective
and then like a real change after okay
so last minute last question please
number
one uh yeah thank you for your talk
thank you um so have one question it's I
think the technique is very useful to
show equality of human beings as human
beings because of the empathy or the
whatever you call it um but I think to
understand conflict situations it's also
very important to have a grasp of the
history uh that led to that situation
that for example you can't show stuff
like that in Palestine and initial you
have an open Society who is ready to
reflect on that the question is do you
have any ideas how to implement with
that technique more historic
perspectives and more like abstract
knowledge or is it useless for what's
your opin I don't think it's useless I
don't think knowing history is useless
um it depends where you read the history
and the history is written by the the
winners it's never written by the uh by
by the people who've been concered so in
that sense we can also be very critical
about history and who writes history but
yes definitely having a more
understanding of the geopolitical U
context in which those Wars are
happening or the reason why they're
happening in this case three different
conflicts one is criminality and ret in
Salvador Congo is about the resource we
all using um phones and computers they
don't work without the Rare Minerals
from Congo so we are responsible for the
conflict there and just because that
pissed me off 6 million death since 20
years and that goes like this because
all digital needs and and Hardware it's
it's going through the roof so that's
just a part of History also and Israel
Palestine I'm not touching that history
simply not you get a big hammer from one
side or the other um but yeah thank you
very
much okay so time is up and that's a
good finisher thanks a lot thank you
very much thank Kar
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
khalipa
[Music]
oh