Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service YouTube and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/2675 Thanks!
[Music]
good morning everyone it's so nice to
see your faces on this beautiful day um
I'm here to give you a message from C3
vet FR from C3
hesk and we expect a very bright and
sunny day with temperatures up to 31°
celi please drink enough use sunscreen
and search for shady places tonight
around um 11:00 p.m. there might be some
thunderstorms passing by north of Sanic
so there might be some rain but this is
not confirmed yet but please take care
of each other and also look out for your
fellow creatures also if you really like
milliways and the milway stage you can
still support the program and the
volunteers providing it by buying milway
coins behind me like making a donation
and they are very beautiful you can just
also just look at them and maybe think
about
it
um and now
now I'm am very pleased to announce our
speaker today here is Mike Mike is a
physicist and uh working for the frown
Hofer IE on um
sustainability uh topics and technology
and I'm really excited to hear what he's
going to tell us about that so hello for
Mike and please giveing a warm Round of
Applause
yeah thank you for the nice introduction
and thanks for having me here thanks to
the technical team everything seems to
be working I'm Mike nice to welcome all
of you guys and all the online people
and I'd like to talk a little bit about
energy transition especially in Germany
since that's the part I know most
about okay everything's fine
everything's fine okay perfect so um and
I'd like to talk about not only the
energy transition but also a bit about
the ICT I got called uh two days ago
that people not sure what ICT means so
uh sorry for that it means internet
communication Technologies which is like
the scientific word for everything
regarding internet data communication
and so on but first of all I have a
short uh
aders a short break because I'd like to
tell you a little bit about my Institute
for which I'm working so we the frover
EA and we are located in Castle the
first slide you could see was a picture
of our new building and as you can see
we are about
450 employees and we have a budget an
annual budget of about30 million EUR and
what we are doing is we did develop
Technical and economic solutions for the
transformation of our Energy System so
and our my Institute is set up in veral
different research Fields you can see
here and I'm personally working in the
grid planning and grid operation field
so my talk will be mainly focused about
this part
so feel free and expect something about
crit planning and crit operation these
are topics normally not known to people
and um there's a
German uh guy who's making jokes
somebody of you might know him he's
called Yan Philip simy and he once said
in one of his joke programs he said okay
what does the normal German know about
electricity yes it comes us out of a
hole in the wall and it tastes like uh
our so I'd like to change this a little
bit so then let's get started with our
power gits and how do they work so
basically I think all of you know this
kind of idea behind this we have of on
left side we have generating stations
like power generators nuclear power
plants and everything and the they
produce energy which gets step stepped
up then transmiss over large areas or
large distances with high voltages and
then through a Transformer near you it
gets stepped down so that you can use it
or the industry can use it so that's a
basic idea behind our power grid but it
gets more complicated
if you look in detail into it for
example if you look at the distribution
level you can see the lower voltages
you're not directly connected to a power
transformer but you're connected over
several lines and several other
Transformers and as you can see these
grids have a different topology we call
it radially driven which means you have
your substation from where lines
radially go away so this means if the
line goes out you don't have any power
anymore so that's not cool and therefore
we do n minus one safety which means we
calculate okay what happens if one line
fails and how can we resupply everything
so the normal answer is to just double
everything so as you can see on the left
side in the picture you have like two
legs coming to your distribution station
and then they can switch between these
two legs this is also a nice feature
because we can hand over if one leg is
too overloaded we can switch over and
can use the other leg to supply your
local Transformer so the nice thing is
these parts are automated but it depends
on the voltage level you're looking at
so in the transmission system which is
the highest voltage we have like 380 KV
there everything is automated in the low
voltage where you at your home like 20 K
KV or 400 volts there's not so much
automated at the moment but we're in the
process of changing this and if you take
an complete view you can see it like
here you have the generation for example
on the left on the right side and then
you have a transmission crit in this
example it's um built up like a net in
German it's called a Masher which means
that the energy can travel uh left hand
and right hand to the sub transmission
station for example and therefore you
get currents which will run
counterclockwise and clockwise which
makes everything a little bit
complicated and therefore everything is
automated to be able to control this
kind of power and if you look in the in
the red box in the lower left you see
that there is a distribution substation
which will then step it down and
distribute it further and yeah there you
can see we don't have this mushion
anymore because there we are feeding the
power radially and therefore sometimes s
if we have a bad condition this can lead
to power failure and yeah normally in
Germany we are quite good at managing
this kind of stuff so that we have a
power availability which is really
really high like I think we have power
loss for less than 5 minutes a year in
other countries this is not so good I
know it from a science project in Italy
there it was like they had their own un
USV for supplying power because they
have power failures of about 2 to 3
hours a year so yeah depends on the
power grid and how everything else is
but let's a take take a deeper look a
substation is the part you are normally
connected to and how is such a
substation built up or set up you can
see we have a source at the top and then
we have several protection equipment for
example this lightning arrest which is
for if there's lightning it's over
voltage then we have a circuit breaker
which is the same thing you know from
your normal household installation we
have the possibility to isolate which
means we can simply shut it off and we
have other Transformers and stuff which
will lead or transform down the power to
go to you so the thing is some of these
components are controlled and are
remotely controllable for example
Transformers are normally these big
heavy
blocks which take a lot of power and
transform it down and they have or they
can have a changeable tap which means
you can change how much or how much
voltage they produce by changing like
which winding you are using to transform
the power down and this part is in the
high voltage grits it's automated in the
low vol volage grits this is normally
not automated but we are at the moment
at the point to automate these things
also most of the time they have like a
local controller which keeps track of
the local voltage and changes the tabs
accordingly there's one big problem
these things are really expensive and
take a lot of time to build and as you
can see I've written it here they weigh
about 20 to 50 tons so you need like a
crane to supply them and if you go and
visit a substation you will see they
always have like one spare unit standing
around to in case of exchange it so
normally they you have two Transformers
because of n minus one safety and these
two Transformers are normally calculated
so that if one Transformer fails the
other can take over the whole load
because normally building such a
Transformer takes years so if you need
one now you will have normally to wait a
year or even longer and normally they
are oil insulated so there is PCB in it
please don't ask me what this is
especially but I know it's a very good
insulator but it's probably cancer
inducing
so yeah but somehow you need to isolate
these things because of the high
voltages and I've F once spoken with the
personel they said normally if they
change Taps more often because of
flashes going in through the tap
changing this is like a big cylinder you
rotate and then you can change the Taps
there you have flashes in it and these
flashes can destroy the PCB so they
normally change these PCB oils oils
quite often and what's also funny this
oil is actively cooled and pumped around
in the Transformer so you see normally
like cooling equipment around it where
this oil is cooled so the other big
thing we have which is remotely
controllable are switches the these are
basically what you know from your normal
switch but they are quite larger and
this is just a control box so the switch
equipment is more up and you can see in
the upper right there's like these metal
rods going up and this system works like
that you can either use it by hand so
you can put in a hand crank and crank
the switch on your own or you can toggle
a switch and then it will switch or you
can send it a command so that when it
receives the command it will go open it
will close and we are using these
switches to change topologies for
example you can um isolate buses with
this you can disconnect stuff you can
ground buses and so on which is quite
important for getting our power grid to
run
so how do we control all of this so the
networks as I've told you is normally
remotely controlled most of the parts
even in the high voltage so but how does
this work and now it gets complicated at
the moment most of the systems are using
a scater and most of them or many of
them are using the IEC
6087 -5 standard and this is a quite old
standard as I've written here it's from
the '90s and it's basically a serial
connection which has data transfer rates
of up to 9 k6 so we're basic basically
running our whole energy infrastructure
with the serial
cable so and they've changed this
because they needed more power and more
data communication speed so they defined
the 103 standard extension which allows
for even more uh faster speeds and then
the 104 standard is the one which is at
the moment widely used because it allows
to transport these serial data via TCP
IP so and how does such a packet look
um I've shown it here if you're
interested Wikipedia has a really good
write up about this how this in detail
works but basically you have two kind of
ideas IDs or addresses so you have a
unit identifier and you have an
information object so you can say okay
my switch for example has an address and
it has several sub addresses or
identifiers where you can ask okay are
you open are you closed um are you
healthy depending on the equipment
installed so and as you seen on the
slide beforehand the system is just
doubled everything you have in the power
grid is just doubled even the Rex
everything is simply doubled and all the
systems are built so that they are able
to digest all messages two times so even
the switch has two contactors which are
completely physically separated and if
one contactor doesn't work and the other
one
works you still have a fail over in this
PO moment so and as you can see here are
some commands uh defined and these types
got also enhanced with the 103 standard
for even more or for even better able to
do energy related stuff and now comes
the 104 standard which is the one we are
using at the moment and I liked the
quote from Wikipedia which said the
security of 104 by design has proven to
be problematic so the IEC published a
security standard which is not that well
adopted at the moment by most of the
network operators so what many of them
do is the following they just use a VPN
so you have these boxes and I think many
of you guys know what these boxes do or
that these boxes are interesting on a
security standpoint and they transfer
the communication via a VPN tunnel to to
the uh light water to the control center
where everything gets yeah then
controlled and directed and decided so
and what recently happened was an attack
so to say on the viaat satellite system
on of the KA set network
and it seems to be that this was not a
direct attack on the German energy
infrastructure but more or less because
the satellite also runs US military
communication the problem was somehow
the attackers were able to take down the
communication to the satellite
which also was used by wind turbines and
meant that the Euros Sky Park uh system
wasn't able to be reached and then the
following happened 11 gaw which is quite
a lot of power of German wind turbines
weren't controllable anymore so they
were just running and nobody knew the
state of these things it was about 5,800
wind turbines which couldn't be reached
anymore so sounds quite devastating but
let me tell you since we know in the
energy system that we need to build
everything n minus one safety so these
have local controllers but these local
controllers are basically able to
sustain a basic kind of operation and as
you will see not being able to control
your wind turbines can lead to bigger
problems
so why is it happened or why has this
happened the problem is most of the time
wind turbines are put in remote
locations and basically you have three
kinds of ways to communicate with your
wind turbines um the first one is you
just dig a cable and throw an a fiber
optic cable to the wind turbine or to
the wind Park and then you can control
everything the other version is you have
like a mobile
connection like normal GSM LTE or
directed uh Radio Systems and the last
option is you use satellite and
satellite is like the fallback solution
which always works because satellites
and normally you send uh commands to
these stations not that often so that
even like clouds or stuff like this is
not that big of a
deal but if you have satellites and the
satellite communic ation breaks down
because of other reasons yeah you get a
problem
so let's head on what I'm doing is power
flow calculations and this is the part
where I want to make it a little
bit advertisement for a software we are
building and we are maintaining and it's
called P power so this is a name derived
from the fact that we are using pandas
Python and we are doing power
calculations and therefore it's clear
for us that we call it Panda power and
if you if you are interested in learning
about how to do power calculations and
power flow calculations and want to fill
around a little bit with the power grid
please go to Panda power.org we are
always welcoming a pull requests for new
features and new stuff and there we have
also a sister program which I don't show
today because I want to talk about the
power grid but also we have also Panda
pipes which is is also open source about
calculating flows in pipes so that you
are able to simulate water heat gas and
stuff like this so these are our two big
open source softwares and as you can see
this is developed by us and the
University of Castle especially the e2n
department this does power flow
calculations in Python and what the
really nice thing is that the bundus
Nets agentur is using this our tool to
do the Nets ening plan the um
development plan for the grid from
Germany and they're using our software
as a standard to do this so this was
quite a big moment for us and we liked
it a lot and how does power flow
calculation work so don't fear the
mathematics on the left side I won't go
too much into detail but the basic idea
is that the power you inject in a bus
need needs to be the power that you take
out and now you have the kof rules maybe
some of you know this from the physics
class in your school and it basically
says the energy coming in is the energy
you take out and if you do more fancy
math around it you can do power flow
calculations with it and on the right
side I have a simple version of a GD
we've seen earlier with the all of the
equipment around and you can see we have
a grid connection normally like to a
higher voltage level then we have a
Transformer and at the bottom there's a
load so and what we can do now is we can
say the system okay this is our grid
setup please do a Power flow calculation
and if you do this you will get this
kind of result so like I said it uses
pandas on the H and the problem is uh
for you guys probably not but the normal
grid operators don't like uh fancy
tables they want to have something they
can look at and not just Columns of
numbers but our tool not normally splits
out color Columns of numbers as you can
see here you get result tables where you
can see the voltages and the powers and
the line loadings for every component in
your grid model
and when you get net gets larger so this
is like the case for three buses and one
load so this quite easy but if your net
gets larger it's getting quite
complicated to understand what's
happening there therefore be wrote some
kind of visualization which is able to
take geographical data to show what's
happening in the grid and this you can
see here um basically if you have geod
data you can attach it to your power
grid model and then you can run the
power flow simulation and then you get a
graphics light like this here you can
see lines and dots these dots are the
buses substations as I've shown earlier
and the lines are the connecting power
lines and the colors will tell you
what's up about with this so red means
overloaded for the lines and for the
buses you have like a per unit voltage
level so this means you to you have
multiple factors in your power Network
on the one hand you have the power lines
which shouldn't get too much current if
they get too much current they tend to
get hot and if they get hot they will
get longer and longer and then will try
start to sack and if they touch anything
you have a big problem so this is mainly
the part you want to keep track of and
on the other hand you have your buses
and you need to monitor the voltage on
the buses maybe you've seen this on your
power supplies for your computer Nets uh
for your laptops and so on and there's
normally written a voltage range on it
like two 200 volts until 240 or 250
volts there are also the modern power
supplies which can can handle 100 volt
or 90 volts to 260 volts this is
basically what you see here normally we
give the voltage in a pu per unit
measure which means we normalize it to
the voltage level of the bus so if we
have a 20 KV bus then one pu means 20 KV
so and it is defined to diverge about
10% so plus 5 and minus 5% I know it's a
bit complicated but you can see this on
the right scale the right color map is
for the bus voltages and yeah as you can
see in this example all the buses are
blue which means that they are in a good
State and are not overloaded except for
in the upper left corner of this example
so if you want to try this this is the
MV oine Network which is included in P
power for playing around basically and
you can see there are some lines which
are red red means bad so this is
normally the part we need to where we
need to do something
and um how do you derive normally such
kind of geod data if it's not provided
therefore we've written a plug-in for
this which um you can see here which is
a cugus plugin which is allows you to
Import and Export P power networks into
cugus and where you can use cugus to
draw basically buses and lines Based on
osm data so and there for we are at the
ne next point the problem is how do we
get such grit models not always are we
getting the grit models from grid
operators
because to be honest much of our grid
isn't digitalized at the moment so yeah
the biggest grid architectures you can
get but if you go deeper and deeper and
deeper in the distribution
levels sometimes you only have like
paper plans and these paper plants are
written by people who are very good at
doing electrical
stuff but they don't have du data so you
have like an electrical circuit Plan
before you and you don't know where
these lines are and you're basically
sitting there and trying to get
everything somehow mixed together and
yeah and not always in all projects we
are working together with grid operators
so we needed some other ways to figure
out uh how to derive such grit data and
I think this is an interesting part
that's why I'm talking a little bit
about it how do we how can we derive
grit data from open source data data
sources so the first point as always is
the open street map and as you can see
here this is
flossom this is like an overlay for open
street map but basically it uses parts
from open street map like for example
the locations of the lines and where the
lines are running and here you can see
an example from schwi Holstein you can
see s in the other upper left corner and
you can see like all of the power lines
and you can see the generation units
drawn in here so and this you can just
query via an API um I've made once the
thing that I looked deeply into it and
most of the stuff in SCH col Stein was
entered into osm by a guy called B pirat
and
I'm eager to meet him because he he has
done so much for this data acquisition
and I'm so thankful because we can make
science projects in SCH Colin because he
is I don't know running around and
putting in like the power lines so I I
am very eager to to get get to know him
maybe you guys can drop him a note I
don't know uh I'd like to talk to him so
but this is only the grit now you could
can drive some kind of grid architecture
you know where the power plants are you
know where the lines are and where the
buses are you can put this into P power
but then you're missing generation data
and this is the next Point here you can
see Renewables P ninja this also an open
source project or open source system
where you can just select a region on
the world and can download the
generation data and this are based on
satellite data I've written it here the
NASA Mira re analyst this and a
cmss Sarah data set the nice thing is
you get this as power as a power
schedule so you can just take this and
plug it directly into Panda power and
then you know how much Renewables you
are generating quite fun now we don't
not only need the generation we also
need the consumption and consumption is
a bit more complicated
because this data is normally not
available but there are many open-
Source projects which has done lots of
lots of research in the in the field of
power consumption so you get for example
standard load profiles you get synthetic
load profiles you get also measured
profiles and as I've shown here the open
energy platform there are many different
versions of these open energy platforms
where you can download data sets from
different projects which will show you
how the consump is for example for an
industrial load or for an electrical
vehicle or you name it you will find
something so and if you pluck everything
together for example for the schwi Colin
area you get something comparable to
this as you can see schwi Colin with all
of its lines and nodes and this is the
ehv so the the high voltage transmission
lines and also the um distribution crit
at the 110 KV and this is about
600 notes so 600 substations with about
500 Flex providers which is like the uh
over category for wind Parks power tox
batteries electrolyzers and so on and so
on this is what I'm showing here coming
from an old project we've done it's
called the na 4.0 which was the idea to
look into the Colin and find a path for
the future how we can use more of the
wind power in SCH Colin and this is the
key point for the next minutes of my
talk because if we look into the
installed power in schwi hin you can see
here it's a quite complicated graph
which is from a colleague of mine we
have the interesting bubble is in the
lower left which shows the offshore wind
production power which was at
2035 estimated for
3.24 gwatt but this is the old grid
development plan this is everything
based on at the moment um they are
reconsulting the next grid development
plan which will increase these numbers
so the total energy capacity uh was 16.4
GW for
schin in conventional power and in
Renewable Power we had like again
15.98% of read or readable but for 2025
we estimate a production power of
42.5 terawatt hours and for 2035 we
estimated
54.1 tatt hours of production so and the
energy consumption is the next we have
for 2035 about 27 terawatt hours of
consumption as you can see we have much
more energy production than consumption
which means Quin for example is a net
exporter of power which is
understandable because they have lots of
wind power up there and now comes the
big problem if you look into the power
flow calculations oh it's hard to see
but you can see that one of the biggest
lines so you have like two lines
connecting Denmark to the South which is
simply congested so it's too much power
and what can we do if this line is
overloaded yeah we need to shut off the
power sources which are the easiest to
shut down and sadly at the moment this
are the Renewables so we are shutting
down the wind power because the lines
installed can't handle this and it gets
worse if you look into the 2030 scenario
you can see it's getting better uh it's
getting worse and in 2035 you can see
it's getting even worse so we need to
shut off a lot of power about 2 terawatt
hours just to be able to transport the
reminder of the energy so what I've
shown here is a OPF an optimal power
flow calculation which means I take the
normal Power flow I've shown you guys
and then I try to play around with the
numbers until the lines are not
overloaded anymore and here you can see
for this one line which was red you can
see several uh other line types which
increase the power transfer Capac
capacity and yeah we are at the point
that even if you take the biggest line
our system has available you still have
to shut off a big amount of power like
about 11 terab of power which will cost
you about 500 million EUR and that this
is kind of realistic you will see at the
number below I've taken this from the
bunus Nets agentur the qual B and they
said yeah about uh
3.8 terawatt
hours need no uh sorry I've read the
wrong number about 500 gigatt hours
needed to be shut off which costs about
€380 million EUR and this is like costs
we all are paying because this kind of
costs will be uh turned over in our
energy price how does this work if we
shut down so much power in the north we
still need this power so this power
needs to come from somewhere else so
normally in the uh crit control
Operation Center they will take the
phone and they will call the other the
other power plant because our power
plants are always in pairs if you shut
one down you will need to shut you will
Inc you will need to need to increase
the other power plant to get it balanced
out and this is what's happening here
and as you can see on the lower on the
lower table I've done this for the other
scenarios you will see that this is
getting worse
so why am I doing this because I'm at
the moment working in the next project
so this was n 4.0 and now I'm working at
NRL which is nor dut's real labor which
is like the followup project and they're
saying okay guys we need to do something
so and we need to figure out what can we
do and the big idea this is also why
this is such a large project with about
60 Partners from industry science and
everything is we want to try out can we
use hydrogen for example to get this to
get a hold on this
so the next slide is the one I'm a bit
fearsome of because as you can see here
it's the road to the Future the current
crit development plan plan um I've uh
looked it up the last two three or three
days because um in June there was the
last um review of it they say they want
to increase the offshore wind power
production from currently 8 gwatt to up
to 70 gwatt in
2045 so in 20 years we will have
installed 10 times the power in wind in
the north North Sea
the PV power will increase from about 60
GW to about 400 to 450 gaw in 2045 and
this will cost us only for the offshore
grid connection about 150 billion EUR so
as you can imagine this is like a really
really huge
Endeavor and everybody's at the moment
like okay what the hell can we do about
this um maybe some of of you guys know
the South link project which is
currently in the building by tenet so
what they're doing is from Brun spit
which is in SCH Colin they are building
a DC coupling line qu completely through
Germany to the southern parts and this
line has a capacity of 2
gaw so for getting 30 70 gatts down to
the South we would need 35 of these
South links and 2 GATT is kind of crazy
amount of power so and we need like 35
of so as you can see we have much to do
and yeah this is the part where I'm
sitting at the moment so tenet is
planning at the moment to do large scale
electrolyzers they're talking about
electroly in the order of gigawatts for
everybody who doesn't know what
electrolyzing means it means we take
water put energy in it and we get
hydrogen and yeah the largest
electrolyzers I've seen until now are in
the megawatt scale and they are talking
about gigawatts thousand of megawatts
they want to install there so and what I
am doing and what we all can do is
develop new algorithms to help them find
suitable locations continue to research
on better strategies to increase the
renewable feed in and yeah we are at the
moment at the point to utilize Ai and
now everybody is like oh no Ai
and last but not least we are at the
moment in the middle of creating a new
kind of redispatch
process which is not only for the high
energy power plants but also for the for
your solar rooftop power plants so that
the power companies or the power
controllers are able to finally tune
what's happening in a grid that we can
increase the renew reable feed in and I
know what you guys are thinking
hopefully they're using a better
communication strategy and yeah I can
only say I'm trying my best that this
will get like a modern architecture
which will not provide security problems
so thank you guys for your attention and
[Applause]
yeah thank thank you so much Mike uh for
giving us these insights we have time
for questions over there isn't is an
angel and you can go to the angel if you
want to ask
questions is there
anyone or was it just so comprehensive
that you understood everything and Mike
has done such a great job that you all
now know okay someone someone is
coming you can also ask in German so
that's not a problem yeah um I would uh
try in English anyway you you would like
to contact that open street map user B
pirat that should be easy for any what
was fuser but just direct sending
sending him a message okay yeah I'm not
not into this how this everything works
but yeah maybe I try
that it's like he's the guy who has
entered most of the power lines in Colin
and I was like okay interesting who's
this
guy another just in the beginning you
mentioned about resilience of the power
grid and we saw in in the war in Ukraine
mhm that it is a very critical piece of
INF infrastructure and how well is the I
think you know more about the German
grid how well suited is how resilient is
that grd against attacks physical
attacks
yeah it depends on your attack Vector
I'd like to say so on the there are
several attack vectors you can imagine
um the point is how large will it be
your attack so for example if
you somehow manage to break into a
Transformer substation in your local
area you can possibly shut off the power
for a small part but they will fix this
in about an hour so this is the normal
roundt trip time they have to do this
kind of stuff but if your attack gets
bigger and worse for example as you've
seen the calculations are n minus one
sometimes they're doing n minus 2 so
this means we have n components in our
Network and we do n * n minus one
calculations to make sure that this
system is working for every conceivable
crit State and as you can see this is
kind of large of endeavor to do so you
need to do a lot of calculations for
this and this takes time and effort so
maybe if you do a coordinated attack on
multiple locations at the same time you
will get problems which are not that
easy to handle I've once been it R Dam
where they
Supply um London with power and they
have a
1,000 gabes and they have like a really
large connection there I'm not sure
about the numbers at the moment and I
was standing in front of such a large
Transformer this was a really big one
like 300 tons was incredibly large and
they have two of them and there was a
third one standing there and I asked the
guy okay what happens if the Transformer
breaks and he said yeah okay basically
we need to get a crane to put it over it
takes about 6 weeks and as I said okay
what happens if this spare unit is
broken and he says yeah okay then we
need to order a new one takes 5 years
and I was like hm okay so and basically
the security is like a
fence
so and what we've seen already in a in a
grid in a European grid the European
power grid is interconnected and all of
the transmission system operators are
working together they have also
Communications protols to exchange data
about what's the grid state in my area
and so on and this is all interconnected
and what you can see is there was once
an effect where you have a some kind of
disturbance in Poland for example which
creates like a big scale wave over cont
over all of Europe which you could see
as a big voltage fluctuation in Spain
so effects are happening and that's why
we are building components which allow
to adjust the power flow so normally
Energy electrical energy is like the
worst good you can have because you need
to produce exactly the same amount you
use otherwise your power system will get
out of hand you can see this at the
frequency of your power 50.0 Hertz is
like perfect and if you differ by only I
think 20 millerz you have like huge
amounts of too much or too less
generation so maybe um there was there
was a sun out uh because of
a um I know what some missing um solar
eclipse thank you thank you thank you
there was a solar eclipse and tenet and
the other transmission system operators
uh asked us to do studies what will
happen in the whole European grid
because the sun will be out for like I
don't know 5 minutes or so and we looked
into it and tried to figure out how big
of effect will this have so it was
noticeable but yeah they managed to get
around it
so yeah depends on the effect size or
the tech
Vector we're going to uh take this
question and then we are going to close
the Q&A okay so basically my question
was um you mentioned in the ending that
um we can use um
hyrogen kind of solve all this and I
would like to get some scale estimations
like how expensive and big would a fuel
cell be to do like that's to the two
gaws you were saying about the line and
also what kind of volumes would need to
be transported of hydrogen to like have
an equivalent to such a line um and
transport the energy like that um so the
project is at the moment at the
beginning so and this is the revision of
the grid development plan from a month
ago so
we still in the Pro in the process of
figuring it out
and to be honest I can't tell you so I
know some numbers for some electrolyzers
but not at that large kind of scale like
I said I know for megawatts of
electrolyzers but not of gigawatts of
electrolyzers and the next problem is
the infrastructure you need not only the
power which needs like large power
connections you also need water so and
this is like the biggest problematic
factor for electrolyzers is to get water
which you can electrolyze if you think
about you don't need much water for
electrolyzes but if you want to turn a
gwatt worth of power over you will need
a lot of water simply and salt water is
not that good to use so tenant is at the
moment discussing to not transport the
energy from the offshore wind power
plants to the shore but to turn it over
into hydrogen directly in the offshore
region so that they produce hydrogen
offshore and this means you need to
First desalinate the water and then to
turn it over and this is
like probably giving you an idea how big
this is so um the next problem is how do
we transport um the hydrogen to
somewhere else because if you have
hydrogen you need to get it away at the
first stages of the pro projects they
discussed and I was quite shocked to
just put it on a semi Tru and drive it
around it's like
okay okay interesting so basically if
your semi- truck runs on hydrogen yeah
but h
no and the next problem is your gas
infrastructure which you can by the way
calculate with P pipes um needs to be
suited for hydrogen so maybe you guys
know that you can feed feed in hydrogen
in the normal um gas infrastructure but
this depends on so many factors that
studies are estimating wild wild wild
values some studies say you can feed in
like less than 2% of hydrogen and other
studies suggest that you can feed in
about 30% so one way they're doing it at
the moment they're put putting liners
into the pipe so this is like a big
plastic snake which is snaking through
the line and then you have like a
plastic coating on the inside which
allows to transport hydrogen the main
problem is hydrogen is the smallest
molecule we have and it will just
diffuse through steel so it just
disappear dissipates and yeah if you're
losing like I don't know 10 to 20% just
through the process of
transporting it's not that beneficial
so good so thank you so much Mike if you
have any more questions to him you can
of course uh just talk to him at the
side of the tent um our next talk here
is going to be heck my handicap in a
quarter um yeah at 11: a.m. so I hope to
see you all there and uh stay hydrated
please give a round of applause to Mike
for his
appla thank you guys
[Applause]