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[Music]
okay let's start I'm sure all of us are
aware of the ongoing climate crisis
that's no surprise here um and we as
individuals can only do so much you know
uh to counteract um the problems as we
all know Li with the big Industries Hano
here right side me climate scientist and
it security researcher he will give us
an overview of the challenges that those
energy hungry Industries face and
hopefully how they can be overcome give
it up for H
[Applause]
yeah hello just a correction I'm not a
climate scientist but I'm like I'm a
journalist and write a lot about these
topics so yeah yeah I want to talk about
the climate crisis and what we can do
about it
and like as an intro I want to show you
this graph which is the CO2
concentration in the
atmosphere and as you can see it's going
up and there's something important to
understand here and that is it will keep
going up as long as we add more
CO2 even if we slow down in adding CO2
it will still go up then it will go up
slower so and the conclusion from that
is like reducing emissions is really not
enough we need to essentially stop
emissions at least from CO2 for other
greenhouse gases it's a bit more
complicated but for CO2 it's really if
we keep adding CO2 then it's going to
get warmer and we will have more
problems therefore essentially we have
to eliminate CO2 emissions everywhere
except maybe a few we might be able to
compensate but that's like really
difficult and expensive so essentially
we need to look everywhere where there
are CO2 emissions and we need to get rid
of
them and when we talk about CO2
emissions of course we often talk about
things like this this is a Coal Power
Plant this is very bad and we should
replace these with better types of
energy like something like this and of
course I know there are complications
with that we need storage intermittency
Etc that's not my topic today I'm aware
of it but that's good to do that but
it's not
enough uh because it's not just about
electricity we have many other sources
of emissions and for example we have
Productions things like steel production
cement production paper Plastics
aluminum glass Aviation shipping
Agriculture and a lot more and the
interesting thing about this is for each
of these pictures here I could tell you
a story why it's really difficult to get
rid of these emissions why we will need
new technologies to tackle these
emissions unfortunately I don't have
enough hours to talk about all of them
so I will just talk about
too um yeah so the first thing I want to
talk about is Plastics um I mean we
often talk about Plastics when it's
about waste handling or microplastics
Plastics pollution but the climate
issues associated with plastics don't
get talked about about that
much I think it's also because it's kind
of a bit complicated but that's what I
want to explain to you and what we could
do about it
so we have for example things like this
this is a steam cracker which is one of
the major facilities that produces
chemicals that then are used to make
Plastics they have a lot of emissions
themselves but there are other issues
associated with it
so if you look at this in a bit more
detail so we have these steam crackers
and they run at least in Europe I have
to say it's different depending on where
in the world you are they run on
something called NAFTA which is made
from oil so you have oil drilling
somewhere you get oil out of the ground
it's a fossil fuel then you have an oil
refinery which kind of splits up this
oil into different fractions and you get
the usual stuff like gasoline for curves
or kerosine for planes and one product
these oil refineries also make is NAFTA
which is what Plastics are usually made
of of this NAFTA is fed into these steam
crackers they need a lot of energy
themselves because they need a lot of
heat it's around 800° C that heat is
also provided by fossil fuels that is
usually fossil gas and that produces a
lot of CO2 because when we burn gas of
course that makes CO2 uh what comes out
of the steam crackers are mainly the
so-called olines ethylene and propylene
if they any chemistry teachers in here
there are a lot of more things that come
out of these steam
crackers I try to simplify it as much as
possible but these are the two most
important chemicals that are used to
make Plastics and then there are further
steps um but uh these steam crackers are
actually the ones where most of the
energy is
used um but we also have to think about
something else and that is what happens
with the Plastics after they have been
used I mean most Plastics is things like
packaging it gets used maybe for a few
weeks and then it goes into the trash
right
um and if you look at this on a world
scale
then uh there what most of the Plastics
ends up in
landfills um around 20% 19% of is
estimated to go into waste incinerator
so it is burn to generate energy then
there's this category mismanaged which
essentially means either you throw
Plastics into nature or you burn it in
your backyard like that's not good but
that's what around 22% of plastics what
happens to it and then there's recycling
which is on a worldwide scale around 9%
I should say here that this differs
widely depending on where in the world
you look for example here in Germany
landfills are forbidden and most of the
pl Plastics is burned for
energy
um now maybe we wait till the train is H
it's stopping here
yeah
um so no matter what all of these cause
emissions in some
form um so if it's mismanaged so of
course if you burn Plastics in your
backyard you should really shouldn't do
that it's also kind of illegal here uh
it causes CO2 because if you burn
something that is made from oil it
causes CO2 it also causes of course air
pollution and other bad
things um yeah but what you may not
realize is if you throw Plastics into
the landscape it's not just a problem
because it may harm nature or may cause
microplastics but it can also cause
emissions because these Plastics can
degrade particularly under sunlight and
they can form methane which is a highly
active greenhouse gas or ethylene which
is if you remember from earlier one of
the things that Plastics is made of
which is also a greenhouse
gas um then landfills are also a source
of methane emissions
um so and this is uh one reason for that
is that the same thing as if you throw
it in nature if you have Plastics and
you have sunlight then it may degrade
but there's also an effect that in
landfills usually they don't have just
one type of waste but they have a mix of
all kinds of things and the Plastics can
lead to the organic content of the
landfill to degrade into methane as well
so yeah there it gets a bit complicated
but also there are greenhouse gas
emissions from
landfills um then waste incinerators or
I don't know in Germany you call them
mil foren an sometimes they are called
waste to energy plants essentially your
burning waste for energy these have
actually the highest CO2 emissions from
all these things
and I I kind of only really realized
this when I researched this that
[Music]
um because like in Germany landfills are
forbidden and we're basically burning
most of the waste which is uh and
sometimes it's even uh waste
incinerators are sometimes even
considered as a type of of green or
clean
energy um but they the the highest from
from the greenhouse gas emission
perspective they are the highest
emitting ways to treat waste Plastics
that's not to say we should go back to
landfills probably not and probably we
don't have the space anyway but it's an
interesting thing to to keep in
mind um yeah if you do recycling that
has emissions from the energy this could
be replaced by clean energy and it's
still kind of the best thing because
you're not just um doing something
useful with the Plastics and then you're
also
replacing oil that is used for new
Plastics instead you're doing recycling
so that's from the all the not ideal
options it's the best
um but like how should we think of these
plastic end of life emissions and I
really think the way we should think
about this is that Plastics are fossil
fuels like they're made from oil they
contain
carbon if you make new Plastics you add
new carbon to the system and that will
usually eventually be turned into some
form of carbon
emissions so really what we have to
think about when we want to make
Plastics without carbon emissions we
need to tackle two things we need to
tackle the energy used to make Plastics
and we need to tackle the feed stock
like what these Plastics are made of
which is today usually oil or
gas and like for the energy we could
think about doing electrification like
most of the energy needed is for heat
and heat can be generated with
electricity and then of course we have
to worry about having enough clean
electricity and having that reliably and
in enough quantities but it's a way it's
a pathway one could go um so um BASF is
currently building uh the world's first
electric steam cracker furnace in
ludwick's halfen they have announced
last year that they started construction
I expect that they will soon announce
probably that they have finished it and
will start it um but that's currently
the only one
worldwide um and if you look at the
numbers don't like don't consider these
as super exact because what they publish
is uh I had to compare yearly capacities
with hourly and but it's roughly around
1.8% so this is yeah it's a start but
it's still a long way to go um th this
uh electric furnace has uh uh needs uh
around six six megawatts of
electricity and if you calculate that
how much capacity they have there and if
you scale that up that would be 350
megaw which is I mean that's a lot of
electricity but it's not inconceivable
like that's something you could imagine
happening so yeah electric steam
cracking it's an early stages but it
appears that this is something that is
kind of
doable
um the real challenge is replacing these
fossil fuel feed stock like what is in
the Plastics
itself and then one option to do this is
there are a range of technologies that
are sometimes called power to X or
carbon capture and
utilization what this means is that
you're taking hydrogen which you can
make in a green way today that's usually
not happening because today usually
hydrogen is made from fossil gas and
that wouldn't make sense but if we had
green hydrogen in large quantities and
then we can take CO2 and out of these
two gases we can make all kinds of
hydrocarbons so that is what usually
called either power to X or carbon
capture and utilization or
CCU um one issue there is okay then we
need CO2 and where does it come from you
may say yeah that's easy we take it from
the next Coal Power Plant but I mean we
want to get rid of these coal power
plants and if we add the CO2 from the
coal power plants in our Plastics and
then burn them later then we'll have the
CO2 from the coater so that doesn't
really make sense
so in the medium term you might use
industrial sources that cannot be
avoided yet but in the long run you
basically only have the option to either
use biomass or you use the CO2 from
waste which I'll get to later or you
take it from the air taking it from the
air is like really expensive and
requires really a lot of energy
um yeah but in the these Technologies in
general require a lot of energy uh just
making all this hydrogen is a very
energy intensive process um there has
been a study a couple of years ago which
I'm citing here that had estimated if
you convert the whole chemical industry
to such processes that take CO2 and
hydrogen then you would end up with
something between 18 and 32 Patt hours
the wide range is depending on how
optimistic you are about new
technologies becoming available but just
to compare that the world electricity
consumption today in total is 22 Patt
hours so you would roughly double the
electricity consumption of the world if
you convert the chemical industry to
these power tox or CCU
processes and I also have some numbers
for Germany here like the the German
chemical industry Association they had a
report a few years ago where they came
to uh more than 600 tatt hours compared
to like all of Germany uses 500 tatt
hours of electricity uh they have a newo
report where they have somewhat lower
numbers the main reason for that is but
is not really new technology or anything
but it is that they have lower
expectations for the growth of the
German chemical
industry um and they looked at a few
different Technologies in that newer one
and the the low number like the around
300 that would only be if you have very
high amounts of recycling and very high
amounts of biomass on top so if you're
mostly setting on these CCU power tox
Technologies then you end up with really
something like we would have to double
the electricity production and get the
electricity production clean in the
first place and of course that new
electricity should also be
clean so yeah then you may Wonder okay
can we make this more efficient
and are there alternatives to
this
and now there are different types of
these power tox
Technologies and yeah I'll go a bit into
that in more detail so this is like a
slight modification from the picture
earlier where we have the steam cracker
that gets NAFTA from an oil refinery and
then there's a technology which is
called a Fisher drop synthesis this has
originally been developed to make oil
out of coal um but it can also be used
to make something like raw oil from
hydrogen and
CO2 so and then we would basically just
have this first step replaced and the
rest could roughly stay the same I mean
we probably wouldn't want to make
gasoline from that I know in Germany
there's a debate whether you should do
that it makes no sense and it's only a
debate in Germany
um but for things like chemicals and
also for things like kerosene for
airplanes which we should probably
reduce but we will have airplanes in the
future probably we might need to do
this um but there's another way to go
about this and this is we'll have to
look at China for this so in China
there's kind of a chemical industry that
is based on
coal why because China does not a lot of
oil and they have a lot of
coal so there's a technology called coal
gasification where you turn coal into
something called Sun
gas that is not clean at all it causes a
lot of
emissions from there you can go to
methanol which also causes a lot of
emissions and then there's a technology
called methanol to olins which as you
might expect turns methanol into olins
so these things where we make Plastics
from now you could
imagine ignoring that thing on the left
side and replacing it with something
else uh green methanol is this is a
facility in Iceland it has been running
since 2008 it was like the first green
methanol
facility uh they are located close to a
geothermal plant which gives them heat
cheap from the geothermal plant it gives
them CO2 from the geothermal plant which
is not widely known but geothermal
plants also cause CO2
emissions and with that and they have
cheap electricity with which they
produce hydrogen and so from the
hydrogen and the CO2 and with the heat
they produce
methanol so this is technology that is
in principle
available still requires a lot of
electricity but it's something that
exists so yeah we could imagine having
the picture before but replace the left
part like we have green hydrogen we have
CO2 we make green methanol then we have
this methanol to Olin process which of
course we also have to power by
renewable energy but that's also mostly
processed heat and that's
doable and then we have these gases from
which we can make
Plastics um now you may say okay uh how
far is this and interesting enough
there's this company from Iceland that I
just showed you that had built this
first green methanol plant they have uh
entered a collaboration with a Chinese
company that is the biggest producer of
these like the biggest operator of these
methanol to Olin plants so this
coal-based
chemistry for
Plastics and they're starting to build a
facility there where they use this green
methanol technology to replace some of
their methanol from coal now I should
say there are a lot of caveats with this
they are not using green hydrogen they
are using hydrogen they get from other
processes they are not using green
electricity so it's not a full scale
chain of green production but still this
reduces emissions because these
emissions from coal gasification are so
high and it's kind of interesting that I
mean if you would ask me what I think is
the most interesting project in
decarbonization of the chemical industry
I would say it's kind of this like
there's nothing in in Europe anywhere
that's at this scale or and that
combines these technologies that could
lead to a chemical industry where we
eventually may get along without fossil
fuels so yeah we have two ways to go
about this one would be we create NAFTA
from this Fisher trop synthesis which we
could call efta because we mostly use
electricity and we have steam crackers
which we Electrify or we have green
methanol and then we have this methanol
to olant
process um the methanol to Olin process
is more efficient so that's the thing
from China um that's not me saying this
but that is written in a document that
the German chemical industry Association
published and they kind of have an
incentive to say it the other way
because they have all these steam
crackers so I kind of trust that that's
accurate
um yeah and like these steam crackers
are among kind of the biggest and most
expensive facilities the chemical
industry has
so this is something to think about like
we
have it's probably not the
technology to move forward with this
yeah what other options May there be so
uh even even if we have this more
efficient process it still requires
insane amounts of electricity that are
probably not plausible to
have um of course and I I really like to
stress this every time I talk about
whatever we could talk about using less
Plastics we should be aware of
unintended consequences like for example
if we replace Plastics with something
that is even more damaging to The
Climate then that would not be a good
idea like usually it's probably not a a
good idea for example to use glass
instead of plastics there are also
issues that reducing plastic waste can
harm like durability of food and things
like that but in general of course if we
can reduce
Plastics without negative consequences
that's a good
thing then we could use biomass um
that's possible the the problem with
biomass is I mean the good thing about
biomass and bioenergy is that we can
basically replace all fossil fuels with
biomass the problem is we don't have
enough and if we start growing biomass
for energy or other uses then that's
usually not a good idea because then it
needs land and that land would probably
be better left to Nature some things
like Wetlands or like if we have left
over land to grow plants it's probably
better to to re to do renaturation or
restoration of
nature um so we can use biomass but we
should consider biomass produced in a
reasonable way is probably
limited then of course there's recycling
as an option as I said earlier recycling
rate currently is around 9% worldwide
but differs widely there are countries
that go like up to
20% sometimes you will hear much higher
numbers they are usually kind of
cheating with how they're calculating it
but like if we would get like most of
the countries to go to these upper
levels of recycling that would already
be a massive
Improvement the problem with recycling
of plastics is that you need relatively
pure inputs to do that because like you
have different types of plastics and if
you have a mixture of different Plastics
that cannot be recycled very
well there's a set of Technology is
called chemical recycling sometimes also
called Advanced
recycling which goes from the idea that
instead of just melting Plastics and
making new things out of it you could
break it down into more basic chemicals
and then use these again to make new
Plastics there are two major
Technologies in that area one is called
gasification which is actually very
similar to the coal gasification I was
talking about earlier um the other one
is called pyrolysis which and an
interesting aspect here is I also
mentioned earlier these two options with
either steam crackers or this methanol
based
technology the gasification would be
more compatible with this methanol based
process and the pyrolysis you would kind
of want to have a mix because you get
something which is called pyrolysis oil
which you could feed into a steam
cracker and you get S gas which you
could make methanol from so depending on
which road you choose on these power tox
Technologies it may make sense to choose
a certain route of these recycling
Technologies as well or you choose an
intell intelligent mixture of both um
these chemic recycling Technologies are
also quite controversial and I think
that's mainly because they have like a
bad history I don't know if anyone
remembers Theros
select that was uh like gasification
technology it was buil in K and was a
big failure and there have been a number
of projects where these technologies
have been tried and it seems relatively
difficult to get them to
work still I think like if this would
provide a way to improve Plastics
Recycling and recycle things that we
cannot recycle now it would probably be
a good thing and it it should really be
the goal from the waist to to use as
much as possible from the carbon inside
the waste to make new products
um but still there will probably always
be some wayte that we cannot
recycle um so we will probably still
burn some waste and but some things you
could think about there is like okay we
could take the CO2 and just store it
underground which is like carbon capture
and storage technology which you've
probably heard
of I'm not going to go into detail of
that that's also very controversial and
there are a lot of things to say about
it um the other thing would be we could
think about okay we burn the waste then
we have CO2 and we could use that CO2
for these processes that we talked about
earlier where we need CO2 to make new
things like these power tox or CCU
processes all of that is not so easy
because when you burn waste you not just
get C2 you also get nitrogen and you get
all kinds of other things because waste
contains all kinds of things if you burn
it it produces all kinds of things so
you need to separate that and this
hasn't been done before like there's
currently no CCS or CCU facility on any
waste incinerator
anywhere um there is one under
construction in Oslo but they just
stopped construction because they ran
out of money due to inflation and cost
increases there is a project announced
in sis uh where they want to use CO2
from a waste incinerator for methanol
production which sounds interesting
there I haven't found a lot of infos
about that project yet but yeah I I'd be
happy if that works um
yeah yeah so to summarize this part um
yeah we can make the chemicals we need
for Plastics from CO2 and hydrogen but
that would require enormous amounts of
clean energy
um this methanol to Olin technology
which is today mostly used in China is
probably more efficient than using the
steam crackers that the chemical
industry uses
today and using less Plastics using
biomass using more Recycling and maybe
using new technologies for recycling all
of that can help and can reduce the
amount we will need with these crazy
amounts of
energy yeah this second example I want
to talk about is glass
um glass of course yeah I mean you know
what glass is like you make bottles out
of it we make Windows out of
it um glass is produced in furnaces at
very high temperatures around 1, 1500°
it varies a bit depending on what type
of glass but in that range and that is
usually produced by fossil gas
today okay so it's mainly Heat um yeah
there are a few challenges with this one
of it is the these need to be
interrupted uh operated without
interruption so many of these glass
companies were very concerned last year
when there was talk about okay maybe we
will have gas shortages and some
Industries will be cut off gas that
would basically mean you destroy a glass
furnace if you stop running it like if
you cut them off their energy Supply
there that's
it um now you Wonder okay we mainly need
heat can we use electricity and of
course in the long run green electricity
to run that but that's difficult and
it's actually not so hard to understand
why so if you have a glass furnace you
have to imagine yeah you have you're
melting some stuff into glass at high
temperatures and you're heating it from
all
sides and like replacing the Heat from
the side and from below with electric
heaters that's kind of doable but then
you also have a flame on top and that is
you need to heat it from all sides so
you get high quality glass and that it
melts properly and so and this from
above that is kind of where the
challenge
lies um in 2008 a company in the US
called cameraon glass they said they can
do this they can build a furnace a glass
furnace purely electric they did it in
an area where there was a lot of hydr
power so this was kind of the first
Green Glass production furnace I I have
to say there
are electric glass furnaces that are
like for special types of glass but they
are kind of small and they are not used
for things like bottles or Windows like
the big ones are challenge yeah so they
tried this um it didn't work um so the
furnace was unable to heat the glass
properly and evenly and there was a
major accident M Glass leaked out the
luckily no one got hurt but it was a
multi-day incident where the fire
brigades had to come and yeah so and
this company filed for bankruptcy the
year later and I had written an article
about this like the question of how to
decarbonize Glass last year and I talked
to a few people from the industry and
like everyone mentioned this thing like
they said they tried this with
electricity and that was kind of
the the incident for our industry where
we got scared of
this um but then you can ask okay but
can we maybe use mostly electricity and
some gas and that is what the industry
is currently trying so there are two
projects for hybrid glass furnaces and
I'm happy to say this here because when
I wrote about it last year what I had to
write was yeah there was a project but
was canceled because they didn't get the
funding now they got the funding from
somewhere else this is the first one
here on the list the next Trend furnace
it's uh glass company in Germany that
they want to
build uh they want I think they want to
go 80% electric and 20% gas there's
another very similar project in czechia
and they just got funding from the EU
Innovation fund which is a EU program
for major decarbonization projects so
these projects are on the way and yeah
they will hopefully be realized within
the next couple of
years um then okay we still have some
gas left we could imagine okay maybe we
can replace that left over gas with
green
hydrogen that would be kind of the next
step and if we have enough green
hydrogen which by itself is a huge test
challenged but then we could decarbonize
the energy supply for glass
making but there's still another problem
like even if we do that so what is glass
actually made of so standard glass
contains three main ingredients one is
so-called silica that is not a problem
the other two are limestone which is
chemically calcium carbonate or ca3 and
the other is So-Cal Zoda which is
natrium carbonate na2 CO3 some chemical
formulas I hope nobody is scared of that
um and like these are called carbonates
and they contain
carbon so what happens in the glass
furnace if you heat these things up they
turn into other minerals so this calcium
carbonate turns into calcium oxide and
that produces CO2 the natrium carbonate
turns into natrium oxide and that also
produces
CO2 and yeah so the mineral inputs that
are used to make
glass they contain carbon and this
causes
emissions and there's really no good
solution for this like okay we can do
recycling like if we recycle more glass
then we already have these transformed
chemicals and then we don't have these
emissions
but we will never have perfect recycling
so that can only go up to a certain
point um yeah also maybe carbon capture
and storage I also asked that people
from the glass industry they said they
don't think that's really workable
because if you want to do carbon capture
and storage you also need CO2 pipelines
and things like that and these glass uh
production facilities are relatively
small and they're relatively distributed
so that's kind of challenging if you
want to get the CO2 and then store it
somewhere yeah to so to summarize the
glass making yeah making a fully
electric glass furnace that's
difficult um we may be able to have
mostly electric hybrid furnaces that run
with green electricity and green
hydrogen and that could decarbonize the
energy Supply but there's really no
solution yet for these emissions from
these minerals or
carbonates yeah um more General
conclusions from my talk um yeah and
this is really the message I want to get
across like if we want
to fix climate change or whatever you
want to call it basically almost every
industry needs to change they need to
change their processes in major ways to
avoid
emissions and many of these are really
in early stages like we have ideas how
to do this maybe we have Pilots maybe we
have early stage developments but a lot
of that has really not been tried in
larger
scales yeah that's what I just said um
yeah and that's also like a big message
we will will need a lot of green
electricity to make that happen I
mean looking at it from a place like
Germany we probably won't have all that
electricity here we will also have to
think about what can we import like if
we think about these chemical
Productions maybe we can import green
methanol and then yeah but that's really
like we need enormous amounts of clean
electricity and I think that's not
really realized at the scale that it
will be
necessary yeah um I also have a small
advertisement block because I mean
earlier I said there are all these other
things I could also talk about
and of course you probably want me to
talk about that and um I want to try
doing talks like this but like for the
internet on YouTube so um you can
subscribe there and I also write a
newsletter where I write about these
things I've written for example about
some steel decarbonization and cement
and things like that yeah if you want to
subscribe there I also have Flyers with
the URL so yeah take that uh if you're
interested and yeah I think we have some
time for
questions yes thank you very much
Hano for that very insightful
talk so yes we have about 6 minutes uh
for Q&A uh do you have any questions
then please raise your arm we have a
very friendly and highly visible Angel
who will bring a microphone yes please
hey um you um at the beginning you had
this slide with this many many many
processes um yeah and you uh took two
now out of them which of them is the
biggest one or how is the percentages of
the um energy consumption steel is the
biggest from the amount of emissions
steel is like 12% if you add the
electricity that you need for the steel
and seven if you only look at the steel
plant
itself next question please yes yes you
said um that
a um a lot of clean energy is needed to
do this de um decarbonization of the
industry um and but what about mining
like what about all the the the stuff we
need to build all those clean energy
like is that even possible
um the mining is not as much of a
problem as people tend to think so what
you need to realize is that if you look
at mining today what we're mining is
mostly coal and oil and
gas
so if we go to clean energy we will mine
a lot less we will mine different things
we will need new mines in new locations
and all of that is has challenges but
there have been a few studies like there
isn't really
any mineral or material where there's a
major shortage over where you couldn't
imagine doing that Mining and really I
think this is an important message like
the the amount of mining will be reduced
if you go to clean
energy okay back there please yeah
thanks for your talk thanks for your
explanation um my question is what about
degrowth so is it really realistic to
think
that we can keep all the industry that
we have and we can just keep producing
if we solve the problem of carbon
emissions so yeah uh thanks for the
question um I mean you noticed that at
some point I mentioned you using less
um about this degrowth question what the
way I think about it so my problem is
that often it seems these debates are
either you want degrowth or you want
technology I I think we should use all
the technologies that make
sense and then we should look at them
and look at the things that are like
really difficult and probably reduce
those and to say I think the most
difficult things are can like Plastics
and
Aviation like these are where you come
to these really enormous amounts of
energy needed and yeah and I think for
Aviation that's the most controversial
one
probably yeah are there any more
questions oh yes right in front here the
microphone is
running yes please if I've seen it right
um You have green hydrogen in all of
these processes right
so CO2 in the on I talked about yeah so
CO2 neutrality won't be happening
without green hydrogen yeah where will
this green hydrogen come
from I mean you you mentioned that
because we in Germany in Germany we have
a very specific party and they are
talking about Green hydrogen for cars we
ignore that one for yeah ignore that one
yeah um yeah it's a challenge
so I could give another talk on that but
um so the issue with green hydrogen I
mean first of all it requires a lot of
energy so we could think about doing
that somewhere where we have a lot of
sun like in Australia or somewhere in
Africa the other problem is transporting
hydrogen is really difficult for example
I don't see shipping of hydrogen happen
that's just doesn't make sense from the
amount of energy you lose with that and
then you could come to this idea that
maybe we should talk about where to
produce what and think about maybe we
should make steel in Australia or in
Africa but if you say that in Germany
then someone shouts the industrial and
then the debate gets difficult but I
think we need to talk about
this all right there's another question
ready in front yeah yeah um one very
practical thing you set an a side note
that's probably better to use plastic
bottles instead of glass bottles could
you elaborate a little bit on that
because I mean we like ditch plastic
bottles so we do glass bottles but
what's it with when we have like plastic
bottles we reuse
um um yeah I I mean reusing a bottle is
always better right doesn't matter what
it's made of
um I mean glass producing glass requires
more
energy
and then there's also like if you
transport glass it's heavier and then it
also requires more
energy and like both are difficult to
decarbonize so
yeah all right if there are any more
questions later uh I'm sure you can find
Hano on a camp um let's give it up for
him again please thank you very
[Applause]
much