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[Music]
well welcome to the next talk um chat
control kisi Constantine and Tim will
tell us about the current state and
inform us about the chat control a huge
Applause for
them um good evening everybody I think
it's our first um time in an outside
location um we
the chat control I'm kisi I'm
spokesperson with the CCC um usually I'm
in the news so studio and no one lets me
out and besides that um I'm yeah chat
control is my life I can pretty much say
that and I have those two Charming men
with me it's Tom from the digital Gaz
shaft and Constantine who are an yeah an
amazing team so um we are really happy
to be with you tonight and not so happy
to be still talking about chat control
however we would like to give you yeah a
longer update on what is going on on and
what are the stats for all of those um
that haven't heard from chat control yet
because um in September when the summer
break is
over um the fight will continue and if
we don't don't act like really act with
a lot of power and I think this is the
right place to find people to act with a
lot of power um we want win this file
but first let's start at the beginning
and at the
beginning we firstly talk about the
structure we will tell you who we are
which I did already and then um we will
talk about how chat control is more than
client side scanning because usually we
only talk about encrypted communication
when talking about chat control we will
talk about the topic of age assurance
and age
verification um the juristic as aspects
of the whole file and um the new quality
of surveillance we are seeing here and
in the end we will give you a little
guide on how to take action so let's
start at the beginning it all started
with this women some of you know might
know her already she's almost um yeah as
problematic as Oola fond line this is uh
Comm commissioner ilva Johansson she's
um the commissioner for home Affairs and
she's the person who initiated and also
is in charge of the whole chat control
file um the chat control file started
one year ago in May at May 11th as a F
in the European
Parliament and yeah what did it bring
us
so it's meant to be as the continuation
of the derogation of the eprivacy
regulation or directive and the idea is
that we want to protect children at
least that's the narrative um that we
have been told um over the last year but
what it really means is breaking end to
endend encrypted communication scanning
endtoend encrypted communication it's a
bit similar to The Online safety bill
which a lot of you might have heard of
and the issue with the Online safety
bill is that's is is already there and
it is coming
so when we hear chat control we think
about breaking encryption this is like
the first thing we think about
but firstly this is not how any of this
works we all know that we can't scan
encrypted communication without breaking
it but there's a big butt there are
really a lot more
problematic points in this
file and this is where we come to age
Assurance so um let's talk about age
Assurance who knows the banner at some
interesting website where you are being
asked are you over
18 well okay a lot of you know this
banner and we all know this is not how
it works and I think politicians
realized that too so this age Assurance
of L like click are you over 18 don't
really work in our universe and there
are a few things they are trying to do
with this file um and they are trying to
really roll out age Assurance on a big
scale so the idea is that there are
applications that can be used to um
distribute child sexual abuse material
and there are some things that can be
used to groom children which means like
adult persons contacting
children and the idea is to keep kids
away from those applications
but if you think further it's really
clear to every one of us that almost
every application can be potentially
used to distribute material in any kind
of sense and to chat with anyone over
the Internet so what would happen to us
would be that like every application
would need to implement an age Assurance
um and this is problematic take on many
levels firstly let's look at the
technologies that are being used so the
first option we all know this in Germany
we have post ident where you can
identify yourself with your ID and um
then the people know who you are and
they can verify that online and um yeah
and there are also some functionalities
where can you can use your pzo in
Germany and put it in there and then
there's a token generated to check your
age but what just that would mean and
then we are like at the wallet issue um
as L uh said before um we are getting
used to flashing our IDs everywhere on
the internet so being anonymous on the
internet wouldn't be possible
anymore that's like a really problematic
development and the second second thing
they discovered which is also in in
their point of opinion really nice is
the whole thing about
age estimation
Technologies and if you talk to
politicians about those Technologies
they like it's so nice you just hold
your face into the camera and then it
estimates your age and you don't need to
show your ID it's great right because
you could stay
Anonymous well the the whole issue is
they are using by using biometric data
to do this
so what from what we learned um like I
think it was around Christmas when the
CCC kle and Snoopy who will be here
later hacked those biometric devices of
the US military is that every database
that contains biometric data is a
ticking time bomb and it will be open up
and the trouble with biometric data is
that is really hard to change so the
politicians basically telling us that it
is okay that young people upload their
faces into whatever Cloud um to be
identified so they can use the media
they use to participate in
democracy so this is also a really
problematic and pushing aspects of the
chat control
file maybe to to backtrack a little
bit remember this file is meant to
protect children um from the
distribution of child sexual abusement
material or the creation um so what this
would do is basically keeping them away
both from the Medias they are
participating in but also from the help
options that would make it much harder
and there's another layer to this and um
this is something some people don't
think about that much is what it would
do to the open source Community because
what happens if I offer an
application I don't know in any
distribution signal for example on the
AR in the AR Arch Linux Universe they
don't have any Central data about their
users you can use whatever mirror
pleases you to download your
software and here the issue could also
be that they would force open source
Community to build some kind of
centralized Asia insurance and
centralize some things and that could be
really bad we've seen that before in
other European files but it's something
that is people don't think about that
much and I think we should all keep that
in mind um and to try to not only keep
the whole breaking encryption thing away
but also the whole age insurance thing
so we can stay Anonymous on the
internet and I already said her name
there's another woman involved we
already know and love and she became
famous in Germany for this
so short explanation for the non-german
guests um this is OA feline and OA
feline wanted to implement stop signs on
the internet so if you serve somewhere
that isn't age appropriate you would see
a big stop sign and then you couldn't go
there and what they wanted to do is just
like dns-based blocking as always
um and we known for years that it's
super easy to circumvent those kind of
things and we also know for years that
this is also a cause for internet
shutdowns because if Cloud Fair flare
ends up at some kind of blocking list we
all have a big
problem so that's about the whole cool
[ __ ] that's also in the file and we are
trying to fight off um which would
change the internet um for the worst of
it
and the big question is what should we
do now and what happened already and as
said before this is a European file and
the EUR the European Union united
through diversity it's a bit
complicated not only our relationship
but also what is happening so we are now
one year in and you would think that we
are pretty far along and we are pretty
far along but but there are still things
happening what you can see here is the
important part for now which is what is
happening in the
Parliament
and when a file starts in the
European Union um you have a few parties
you have the commission so commission y
commissioner Johansson the person who
started the file who initiated the text
and then we have the council and the
Parliament and the council and the
Parliament are deliberating over what
changes they need to see so they can
adopt the whole file and we have
committees in the parliament who
have
yeah specific knowledge so we have the
imco committee which is the internal
Market Committee we have the culture and
education committee the women's right
committee and the budget committee and
we have a main committee which is the
Liber committee which is the civil
liberties and Justice and home Affairs
committee
and they all deliver reports um which
are guidance to the parliament on how to
decide on those files and we already
have all reports of all um committees
like all the Committees on the up upper
side of the picture but the really
important committee is the lia committee
because it's the main committee and they
will have their vote in it's it's
October right now right they pushed it
to October so this report will be really
important because it will be guidance to
the Parliament and then the parliament
will vote on the things they want to
change in this um whole
law and then we go off into the
trialogue we will hear some more about
what the council did later um but first
uh we go to the boring
stuff no law usually isn't that boring
but um yes law is usually that boring um
but uh especially here no uh obviously
I'm talking also about the detection
orders which we didn't mention so much
yet but uh a lot of you know like with
the detection orders um any provider can
be um uh can be forced to to implement
like the um client side SC and other
stuff
um and you probably think this is this
can't be like this can't be legal and
it's obviously not legal uh within the
the European Carter um like every um all
the legal experts on the matter who said
something about it say it's it's
definitely not legal for example even
the um Council which is like the hardest
part you'll hear something about it
counil is where the governments of the
national States gather um even the legal
service of the uh Council said it's uh
that um detection orders would
compromise the essence of the rights to
privacy and data protection in legal
terms like uh violating or compromising
the essence of a law of a fundamental
right is like this is the the stop sign
we heard about um usually like cases are
one over whether something is um um is
necessary or proportionate or something
and but if something violates the
essence of a of a fundamental right then
it's definitely not legal so uh you
might think okay then the uh Court of
court of justice of the European Union
will stop this law um we hope they will
but we would not want to depend on these
elderly people with funny clothes um for
some reasons um first it would take
years until the court would decide in
this time um client side scanning the
whole technology would be implemented
there's also um they want to build up a
huge Center close to to uh in uh to to
europol uh which would be established
then um and uh we would not want this
also the legal framework of the uh chat
control file is very complicated so we
can't be sure whether they might find
some way to to pass it through and um
also the the court of justice is simply
not predictable there are uh in the past
for example um those of you who who are
are interested IM migration policies um
few years ago two years ago or something
uh they decided on illegal push backs
and no one thought they would uh they
would legalize push backs like they did
so you can't be sure on on what what uh
the court of justice of the European
Union will do you can't trust on or rely
um that they will uh definitely um
comply to the European Carter and um and
also um we fear that that even if they
say okay detection orders are in the way
that uh they are being implemented are
not okay but if they change it a little
bit here and a little bit there and if
there's a judge in between and something
um uh they might say then uh it might be
legal uh especially um client side
scanning this whole technology and also
the European Center and stuff like this
age verification all these things they
might say Okay few parts are not okay
but uh some of them are okay and um then
the European Union the commission uh and
the council then they would know what
they allowed to do and we notice from
Germany uh also probably from other
states um that it's like a it's a
strategy they have been using for for
years now um that they do laws that are
obviously unconstitutional and uh then
they're going to find out okay what the
what what the Constitutional Court says
might be a little okay and then they uh
push the boundaries they and they not
only test the boundaries but also push
it and push it and we've come a long way
from like from the 80s where the
Constitutional Court of Germany decided
on on um on data protection and nowadays
they they would never decide had decided
then what they're deciding now so um the
boundaries the legal boundaries of what
is constitutional just justifiable are
always pushed pushed further and further
so um we're fearing that the commission
is now just um adapting the strategy
which we already know so much so um and
also um and of course
um we are pretty sure that it's not that
that cm is like the Cesar is a is some
kind of in Germany say test balloon like
a test um what they can do what they can
Implement and we already know that
they're planning on on implementing
stuff um in other ways for example in
November 2020 they already some of you
might know it this in famous paper
called um security through encryption
and security despite encryption um they
already said something like uh that they
want to have an active discussion with
the technology industry to Define and
establish Innovative approaches in view
of the new technologies to access
electronic evidence to effectively fight
terrorism organized crime child sexual
abuse uh and v as well as a v variety of
other cyber crime and cyber enabled
crimes so uh sexual uh abuse is just
very small part of it um they and what
they had in mind obviously was uh client
side scanning um back then already um it
was before Apple uh decided to implement
it and there was huge discussion about
it uh so we probably know that they want
to do it in other cases they um don't
want to they want to like establish
these uh Technologies um you already
mentioned the the Online safety bill
from UK um they're already discussing uh
using these Technologies to to uh
prevent people from crossing the uh the
uh yeah from from Crossing Borders and
to prevent migration they're already
discussing this though the uh bill is
like just a couple of weeks old uh and
also there is an uh French MEP um from
theore National who are yeah um yeah
sorry Member of Parliament um of
European Parliament who said who wanted
to extend this to uh drag shows and uh
indecent art um so
if implemented uh this is going to be
like um
sorry password report yeah sorry I got a
new
computer got um okay I'm going to try to
remember what I wrote down um
yeah uh we see and also we really fear
that the U court of justice or um like a
lot of lawyers don't understand that we
uh are um handling with the new uh
quality of of surveillance um in general
like the um for example in Germany
discussions legal discussions about
surveillance are always about collecting
data data retention is like the main
thing but also in other points um I
showed this picture just over there
there's uh like our uh justice Minister
uh um protesting against data um data
retention um couple of years ago um but
still the discussions are about uh
collecting data
um uh client side scanning and the whole
technology wouldn't uh like rely on uh
collecting a lot of data it would rely
on that in real time um our our
communication is being analyzed in real
time everybody's um communication is uh
all the time analyzed in real time not
they're not collecting a lot of data
they're just sending the data they need
um but uh this really makes um yeah
constitutes some kind of new quality of
of surveillance um surveillance like in
modern uh you probably know this fuk
this this panopticon like modern um
surveillance is often seen as like a
panopticon that there's a place from
where you can look and um and the people
who are surveyed who are being surveyed
don't know if they're being looked at um
probably not because like this uh the
the uh the controller just can
see see very few people but um there's
always the possibility that you're being
um that you're being looked at or
controlled but actually like at you're
disciplined because you have the feeling
or you have there's the possibility that
you're being looked at at now um this
these new uh Technologies like client
side scanning like but also um for
example video uh behavioral analysis of
in on videos uh what we're seeing in
hamor at the moment um they doing it in
real time everybody is uh it's it's not
that cop watches or something but like
that everybody who's who um who's within
the the focus of this uh surveillance
everybody's communication is uh analyzed
all the time and um so this is like a
new quality of of surveillance that um
we really don't see that that uh it's in
the legal discussion at least uh is
being seen that way so I think we're a
little over so thanks to the for the
lawyer talk really great and we all love
it um back to the tech stuff so um I
already talked about age assurance and I
talked about the stop signs which we all
know are obviously crazy but we shortly
want to backtrack to um the technology
where chat control got its name from
which is Tom already mentioned it client
side scanning I could talk about client
standing for hours but we want to smooth
out a few things so what is the issue
with client side scanning um a lot of
experts named it the Bucks in our
pockets and when we talk about client
set scanning the whole chat control file
and also the politicians talking about
it mostly are talking about detecting
unknown abuse material they don't talk
about the already known material so
client Sid scanning is like yeah
artificial
intelligence screening the pictures and
saying okay this could be child sexual
abuse mat material and they send an
alarm and the issue is that it can go
wrong on a lot of places so firstly of
course all our communication is screamed
and it gets sent
to an entity just to be screened but
also we don't know how the sets are
being trained um a lot of studies showed
that lgbtqa plus communities are
targeted way more and it's way more
often Target uh marked as an appropriate
material so this is the whole issue with
detecting unknown material another issue
is detecting known material we all would
say Okay detecting known material that's
easy besides it's really problematic
detecting to detect known material with
client Sid scanning technology installed
on our phone interrupting our encrypted
communication but there's also another
big issue with that because if you try
to detect known material you would say
okay here's the picture compared to the
other picture and then it should be fine
right but we can't do like the typical
we use a hash function build a hash and
if it's the same hash it's the same
picture because if you Flip Flip one
pixel your algorithm wouldn't work
anymore so what they do is train big
neural networks to generate the same
hashes for really similar pictures so if
like some points on the picture are the
same there will be the same hash
generated and some of you might know
there are attacks on neural networks of
course um for example adversarial
attacks so you can easily reverse
engineer this whole network and then
fake pictures either being flagged or
not being flagged so the whole thing
about telling people that detecting
known material isn't as problematic as
detecting unknown material is like
really blonde so this is something we
will talk about a lot in the future
because what we see in the discussions
that are happening now we will have with
a lot of luck we will get out detection
of unknown material with client side
scanning but there's still ongoing
discussions on known material so keep
that in mind for the rest of our
talk okay cool then as it was teased
before I will tell you a bit about the
council uh what we are fighting against
basically in this case um and what you
should know as the council is
representing the member states and the
governments of
typically they are the ones in favor of
more surveillance uh they are the ones
for like well civil rights so that's not
so much of an importance there's
insecurity and we want to do something
about it so then they are typically our
not our allies the European Parliament
would normally be they are also a bit of
a tough catch this time but um I will
give you a bit of an idea um where
governments are here as it has been
leaked in May uh Spain who is now
holding the presidency of the EU Council
the Council of the EU um wants to ban
ENT to end encryption they want to
prevent you from having secure end to
end encryption and that is something
that uh they say behind closed doors
when the commission was asking how do
you feel about encryption so yeah that
doesn't look too good they are the ones
facilitating the internal discussions
within Council
and the other um me um governments in
there not really going to help us that
much more um because well typically we
learn through leaks right thank you to
Nets politic or by the way who tend to
be the ones leaking a lot of
[Applause]
stuff so because of that um we know
because of these kind of leaks that
governments after us telling them over
and over again that this is a risk to it
security this is a risk to the the
confidentiality of communications this
is killing privacy um it always was said
by the um European commission well you
know this is not true we can do ma that
distinguishes between good and bad and
therefore this will not affect any of
the law-abiding kind citizens well but
somehow governments uh must have now
figured out well this actually does
affect us and we do have secrets too so
in a leak from June we learned U that
we're in Council there um discussing now
exceptions for government
chats it's true yeah um but it seems
like they finally understood uh that
this is a real problem to it security
and privacy but they have taken a really
um I don't want to curse theyve taken
very bad conclusion from that instead of
doing the only right thing that they
should do right now and that is to
reject chat control they said well let's
protect ourselves and leave people um to
their own
suffering and personally I think this is
quite a scandal and we can't let them do
that so we really need every single
individual here we need everyone uh
listening now watching in the live
stream and I'm going to tell you a bit
more about how we can now take action to
protect our civil
rights yeah this is a later version they
put it in a different part as well so oh
yeah I forgot I have memes he forgot his
memes
yeah that's my favorite one um that's
what we can do yeah and actually um
that's thanks kisi for the hint uh of
course on the websites that we have so
chat control chat
controller and uh stop scanning me. uh
you will find nice materials that you
can use pictures to share online on
social media everyone spreading the word
is going to help and there's a couple of
other things you may have done some of
those already um but you can do them
again let's be honest um in some cases
um if you are part of an organization
you want to join the movement and become
a part of stop scanning me and if you
from here on I don't have notes so but
thanks um and um yeah you can either
join uh if you're an international
non-german organization join stop
scanning me if you operate Germany
please join chat controller stopen um if
you are an individual you can join as
well of course in and we need every
individual here you can sign a petition
that is aimed at European policy makers
who will receive that before the vote
and with that you can show that you are
one of many many people more than 100
NOS as well that say to the European
commission and to the European
Parliament reject this proposal because
yeah it's obvious why you can find it at
stop scanning
me. and there you will also find uh a
newsletter uh organized byri who is
facilitating the stop scanning me
Coalition and of course on chat
controller. Au you also find our
newsletter and there's something more
fun um than signing petitions which is
easy to do and very important um but you
can also dance you can promote privacy
and celebrate encryption and there's a
social media challenge uh in which you
basically find symbols find something
that displays security encryption safety
messaging and share it with celebrate
encryption on social media so these are
like one or two examples people just you
know you may have your sunglasses you
may have like nice stickers on something
that relates to these topics so do
anything that you think is kind of
creative and Sh share it at celebrate
encryption with # celebrate
encryption then of course um we've asked
you before um to do this and it's still
important and the closer we get to the
vote the more important it gets contact
your members of European Parliament you
can also contact the members of your
National Parliament and tell them to
reject chat control and we want to make
that easier and for that we have a great
Ali with enter works and they are
currently developing a so-called dear M
tool and they will present tomorrow at
um 11:10 p.m. in the digit stage on how
to use that they will give you a sneak
peek and that will make it easier for
each and every one of you to call your
MPS to contact them and make your voices
heard because European policy makers
only if you tell them that you're there
and that you want them to act then only
then they will um take notice and of
course we're doing a um how to take
action Workshop in two days so on day 4
at
2:30 maybe a short information for
everyone again me are members of the
European Parliament and you can also
create your own memes I'm really up for
more chat control memes and age
verification memes and of course we have
stickers with the Congress themed chat
control logo so um pick up your stickers
get to your keyboards always encrypt
your emails and um don't let them take
encryption away from us I would say and
with that no we got a little bit more
yes because you have to organize actions
we need you to find allies in your local
community stage small protests inform
people do something creative like uh
like the dancing uh but whatever like
you feel like you're artsy you want to
write poems do anything really every
single help is really needed and share
with us what you're going to do we can
amplify your actions and also it's
really important for us to know if you
do have capacities for actions in
September in October so we can get an
idea how big a protest can we organize
because the bigger protest of course the
stronger the impact on European policy
makers and these are just uh two
examples now from actions that we have
done in the past uh you don't need
really many people to create a press
event that they can report on and that
is really helpful but we need more
people and bigger protests exactly
because that's really impressive and I
do hope that if we manage to uh call for
huge protests that every one of you will
attend and bring your most interesting
and creative signs and with that we can
now go to the Q&A and thank you for your
attention also this is how the stickers
look
questions thank you for your wonderful
talk we have about I think 7 Minutes uh
no 6 minutes left for questions we
remarks whatever um please queue up in
the middle and at where the person is
pointing and then there will we have a
microphone for your
questions
okay are there any questions from the
internet all right we'll be around if
you want ah there's someone coming
up
you mentioned that we already have
statements from some of the it wasn't
the council it was the the jistic
service of some like we have some
statements of
the juristic service is the right term
right like a lot of uh of of legal
opinions this was the legal opinion of
the Council of the European Union they
decided to just ignore it um there are
also like uh the bundist Talk's legal
service got a legal opinion which says
this is not okay a lot of like actually
every um every written opinion on this
matter is like obvious that it's not
legal and maybe um even the European
commission's internal um committee that
is in charge of telling the commission
before it officially propos the law um
they told them hey this is going to this
is not going to fly with European uh
rights and they still did it but we
really can't we really we can't rely on
this we we have to fight this
politically we have to stop this before
it gets
because it would take years and we are
we can't trust the court of justice and
you know what happened with data
retention like everything it gets struck
down someone proposes it again so once
the genie is out of the bag or whatever
you call it like they're going to keep
keep coming back with
this uh you mentioned talking to your
MEP but I'm from the UK so I don't have
any anymore so uh you have the Online
safety bill now yeah so I'm kind of
screwed what can I do
I mean like I I I mean like no but I
mean like yeah move to Ireland you can
talk to Irish
MEPS and I mean like I I feel like if
you tell people some things in British
they always re react nice to it so you
can also talk to MEPS just give them the
arguments it's not like maybe not not
only the pressure if you're like I'm not
voting you again but the explan
explanatory thing I mean we can still
try to explain the internet to
politicians we know they don't
understand but we can
try and of course you can support the
fight against the Online safety bill um
with the open Rights group I'm sure
they're always looking for allies to
help you with that as well they're
leading the fight in UK on that file
there um so we of course don't want the
UK to be um I'm avoiding the cursing
again um
[Laughter]
so you have a small question about the
terminology used in politics is the word
key as crow in the form of encryption
also discussed in those documents or
because can you talk a bit louder yeah
is the word key escrow uh being used in
politics about this subject or no um I
like they they're a big F fan of
homomorphic
encryption um so no um there are like a
lot of legal terms there is no technical
specification yet in and the in the
Online safety Bill we have seen that
they just deliver like a like a little
like yeah it's not even like a like
really solid technology wise and also
like this is what the European
commission through they say like it's
technology open so we just think we can
nerd harder and then we can solve this
problems but they don't really know what
technology they can use um there is a
technology they dream of but um client
side scanning is not what they think so
um no we aren't as far in the discussion
as K
Crow they want to leave a lot of to the
Europe Center uh which basically would
like be very powerful on this but if I
remember correctly the European
Commission in a league document sometime
summer last year also said that 10% of
error rate is kind of okay with them
so yeah so we have a Quee right now if I
see that
right okay um so you said we can't count
on the council and the situation with
the European Parliament is kind of
tricky and we should all write to our
meeps so why is the situation tricky
with the meeps so the issue is um it's
it's it's the it's a publicity game a
little bit because this file is about
all about protecting the children and
who doesn't want to protect children and
as it's a really technical file it's
also really complex so there's like
really complex social issue we have here
and the politician thinks okay we just
throw some technology at it and then we
have it solved and it's an easy fix and
so they are really sensitive about the
whole Child Protection issue and that's
why it's so tricky in the parliament we
already like on a good way the report
this is what we call um what those um
committees deliver in terms of their
opinion on the file look for the imco
file for ex for the inco committee for
example look really good we now have to
get like a majority in Parliament which
is tricky so it's really important to
talk to the Parliament and to reassure
them that protecting children is
something we can do but in a different
way and it's like a complex social issue
we need to address in another way but
that you never can use technology to
easily fix complex issues and we heard
that they're really afraid of people of
protest on the street just before
election so next year there's going to
be an election and like they're afraid
of Street prot and we are over time yeah
we have like we do one last question
afterwards you can maybe talk to them
so so with the Online safety bill in the
UK we've seen the major chat platforms
like uh WhatsApp and Signal actively
speak out against this have we had any
response to this proposal by any of the
major T platforms yeah it's it's like
the same so um the online Sal bill is
now our showcase so we will see if they
would really work out or if they want
but they stay the same in terms of chat
control that they would treat us like
they treat the UK with the Online safety
Bill if this file comes into
Force okay okay then at last thank you
for your talk and a huge of Applause for
[Applause]
them