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[Music]
more or less hi I'm
Oliver um who of you has uh heard of
stalling that's great who of you has
played with a
starlink oh one that's not a lot all
right uh so uh that's why I think it's a
good uh time to to talk about uh what's
happening in space and uh what the next
Frontier uh not only from a technology
perspective but also for the Hecker
Community uh might look like so yeah
we're talking about things that uh may
go boom and it's exciting times and
everyone uh that's following uh also
what happening with Space X but also the
greater space uh
theme uh uh is quite excited uh what's
happening right now really interesting
times so what's my motivation for for
being here so uh I'm have long time
contacts uh with CCC even though I'm not
a member uh even though the Burger House
I'm uh idle state I'm SP idle State uh
so uh long time ago uh uh so I know a
bit what I'm doing um but what took me
here is uh that I did some testing uh
part of my job uh for a client uh and I
looked at uh H how does this thing
perform how how does it stalling work
when it's in motion and uh yes we even
have uh autoban uh that look like uh uh
Railways um so uh you make draw your own
conclusions uh what that means so I uh
filled my car had a stalling uh mounted
to it and uh looked at uh how can we uh
quantify what's going on especially when
that thing is in motion so basic setup
uh uh took the data there measured power
uh put that uh in a Time series database
grafted a little um uh so uh nothing uh
super uh strange and serious but the
outcome was quite interesting so uh just
as an example I I saw that the
performance of that thing uh was
surprisingly good and uh so the Ping
performance uh when you're driving at
German autobound speed even when uh this
overhead power line is moving over that
thing uh is really good and uh very
often beats what's happening in the
mobile World um so you can see uh
throughput uh uh and this is not an
advertisement section it's more like my
personal experience uh what really draw
my attention to it uh and so this was
more a casual test uh uh that I can talk
about uh so 280 megabits down uh 50 plus
megabits up uh and uh very nice uh
latency figures um Power was not
something uh that you would be concerned
of so this is the the high power antenna
setup uh the consumer thing is more or
less equal uh but uh works really nice
so um after all uh it draws little power
uh it has high performance uh and ping
is uh super cool uh I see ping rates uh
of like uh 30 to 60
milliseconds uh which which is a very uh
good performance even in a mobile uh
network setting so
uh wow uh how does that work why does it
work and uh what makes it so amazing so
uh just from a technology perspective I
I tried to condense it a little bit uh
what do we want to have we want to have
uh a user terminal and a Ground Terminal
and there's one or multiple satellites
uh flying above in the skies and uh
somehow this gets connected to the
internet uh so easy peasy nothing super
complex obviously behind the scenes uh
uh there's lot of uh stuff happening um
but also uh we we see now that these uh
Mega constellations are popping up uh
and every couple of weeks uh we hear a
new announcement uh uh with even uh
bigger numbers of how many satellites
we're expecting to see so the world is
changing here in previous times we had
uh the idium the vsat and also sces as
players uh that were mostly working from
geostationary orbit and now uh we have
these uh Leo low earth orbit
constellations like Starling Amazon prot
coer is uh about to come one web is also
up and running uh by now uh so we we we
see a lot of players that are already
there and there's much more to come and
the benefit of what's happening there is
they are flying really low so low earth
orbit is anything up to 2,000 km in
height whereas geostationary is like
35,000 km and you can really see the
difference when you look at the
calculated ping times or roundtrip times
for Signal or when you take into account
uh speed of light so something in the 3
to four milliseconds for the orbits that
stalling is using 8 milliseconds for
what one web is using uh o3b is like 53
milliseconds all that is really it feels
like you're using a proper Network more
or less whereas in previous times uh the
geostationary players had these 250 240
milliseconds and that's is just the time
it takes the signal to travel back and
forth the real problem uh also on top of
that is what's the netor NW
infrastructure and what is it just a
Bend pipe on the satellite uh that is
just downlinking the signal uh that is
being sent to him or is it uh networking
equipment that's somewhere up in the air
so all that adds latency so just to give
you a perspective uh on how this thing
works mechanically uh there's Newton's
Cannonball so uh how do you put an a set
light into orbit first you need to
launch it up there but then it needs to
be really fast so it tries to drop down
to earth and uh the speed of it needs to
be higher so it always misses earth when
it drops and uh so that uh what we're
aiming for is a uh radial orbit uh that
nicely circles the Earth there and uh
the problem you will find there is it's
moving quite quickly so so
uh
7,600 m/s uh that's quite quite quick um
and that brings uh the next challenge so
you see the Earth and you see the
antennas uh and uh the new generation of
low earth orbit
constellations um tends to use uh flat
panel antennas uh these are really uh
marvels of uh radio design and uh can
really do wonders and uh be patch
antennas or um lonberg lenses and
whatever is happening there uh lots of
development going on in that area and
the aim is to really drive down cost and
uh to make it more or less a consumer
device um but these antennas have a
field of view and depending what
technology more or less it's 110 or
140° give or take so uh that's a fixed
angle and when you're looking up to the
sky the satellite passes over you and
you only have a small time window of uh
like uh 160 maybe 240 seconds depending
on the orbit uh where you can see what's
happening uh so uh anything above the
Horizon is not of interest to you you
don't want to use that because uh
there's more attenuation and uh also the
antennas have some limits on uh how fast
they can steer the beam uh
electronically and uh so clever
calculations going on there and uh
depending on the orbit how high you fly
uh it more or less tells you how many
satellites you need so you end up making
your calculations how do I build a
constellation and you come up uh with
quite exciting numbers depending on what
your orbit is what your business model
is what kind of customers you're serving
um so you tend to build a uh uh Walker
Delta constellation uh where you space
uh the separate shells uh around the
globe and they fly around the globe and
you uh uh Define more or less when
you're designing that uh how many uh
segments are flying at the same time and
uh you can also have them fly over the
polar region uh if your customers are up
into Arctic and
Antarctic uh business whatever that is
and you can also stagger them and that
comes in Becomes of interest uh for
example when you want to communicate
between your satellites uh we come later
to that um so that's the key uh factor
for dimensioning your uh minimum viable
constellation the next uh Factor that's
that adds on to that is is um what
business do you expect so what bandwidth
uh do you have where do you expect your
customers to be uh how big will be your
sales uh that you're serving uh and that
also comes down to where are your
customers so you design your network uh
also where the customers are so you want
to have uh Pops that uh exfiltrate the
user traffic to the internet but also
you want to have gateways that are more
or less close to the customer so that
the uh uh the the the uh distance of
travel for the signal uh can be
optimized and there is lot lots of
thinking for example in Germany
currently we have two uh Gateway
stations uh whereas in the US uh where
there seems to be more customers for for
Starling uh there are many more stations
um what you also can do is um to rout
the traffic uh between satellites and
that becomes very interesting and useful
when you're uh for example serving the
Marine industry uh recently spoke to a
guy that's uh working with oil platforms
and he said wow uh Leo is just a godand
for me uh I've been uh really ripped off
uh for for nothing like two megabits uh
and always could saturate that link and
now we can really do remote uh
management we can do even teams call
from our our or and for cost that's uh
next to nothing compared to what uh they
paid in previous times so how do you
reach these remote areas uh you just
hand over uh hop to hop uh via the
satellites that are orbiting in Earth so
it's uh uh just another opportunity to
have a network mesh flying above our
heads
so when you launch a satellite what
happens first of all you shoot them up
we probably many have watched these uh
Space X or whatever videos uh and then
uh the satellite gets released uh and
that's not the final orbit usually uh
they are staged there and then they are
uh checked uh if they work and then they
are raised in the orbit and you remember
the picture we saw about these orbital
shells uh so every satellite has a pre
design space where it needs to end up so
uh you need to get the timing right uh
to raise the satellites and you see uh
that this tends to work and for example
in this case uh uh the famous Jonathan
McDow uh uh is the data Pope uh for
anything satellite related uh he's
creating all these cool graphs uh so
definitely uh needs uh that mentioning
here um but uh uh what also can happen
is uh that the satellites do not reach
their orbit uh there's been uh in in the
uh left part of the scale you see lots
of satellites dropping out so what
happened we had a sunstorm so the solar
activity warmed up the earth atmosphere
um which resulted in additional drag so
the atmosphere expanded and the
satellites uh got slower and slower you
remember uh Newton's Cannon uh that
didn't work out well so many just
returned to Earth uh before they uh
could be placed in the uh destination
orbit um tough luck and uh but when
you're dealing with large numbers that's
something that just happens um but also
when you're putting new technology into
uh the game uh just recently uh SpaceX
launched a new version the V2 mini and
uh that cohort uh also had some issues
that needed to be resolved so some of
them were raised and then they were
lowering their orbit some some were
already deorbiting and some uh probably
uh could uh fix their issues and then
they reached orbit um but that that
batch uh didn't look too well um but
usually uh if you look at it it's more a
mixed bag some uh make it some don't
make it um and you see that uh the
numbers it's in the lower 1% range uh
that uh doesn't really make it uh so
overall in the bigger scheme of things
uh it's not such a tough
loss um you you also see uh the
difference between uh for example
Starling and one web and uh where
Starling seems to be uh also very much
focused on consumer business one web uh
seems to be more focused on a reseller
B2B business and uh also uh has a lower
density of satellites there um but that
also tells you about what's the maximum
throughput of the total constellation or
the maximum throughput you can get uh
when many consumers subscribe in a
certain area uh to that service uh so
lots lots of Arbitrage happening here
and uh another uh thing is service
availability you need to liaz with every
regulator in every Market every country
country you want to serve because they
want to uh uh have their say you're not
uh uh sub uh generating subscribers uh
so uh probably some have heard about the
Iran story that uh uh SpaceX was asked
uh to allow people to use it in Iran
even though it's not being sold in Iran
so what what's happening is well the
Emirates and other places seem to be
interesting uh places to to ship stuff
uh in that area um but it slowly it's
it's growing and uh just in the last two
weeks I guess Malia was added uh so uh
it's it's all moving quite swiftly and
even right now if you look uh at the uh
satellite tracker sites usually you you
see like 10 12 15
even satellites that have a line of
sight between you and the Gateway so for
the terminal you're having it has a lot
of choice which satellite to talk to and
it's not a given that uh always the
shortest path is used so uh there's lots
of scheduling and algorithms uh working
there uh just to from a constellation
perspective uh manage the traffic uh as
best as possible
and these satellites also move uh and
they also can avoid for example running
into other satellites uh so how do you
get that data and there's some cool
companies out there uh that like leolabs
and they basically used something that
was used in in science for ionospheric
science Radars uh they were tracking
satellites and uh because they needed to
uh more or less uh Sub sub subtract that
information and found out that the sub
subtraction was more of a business um so
uh there's a lot of uh data providers
that tell you where at any given point
in time a satellite is and uh what the
trajectory of that satellite will be so
you can forecast over time uh is there
the risk of a conjunction and then you
need to move your satellite and
hopefully you get enough uh fuel left
over so you can re uh place it move it
upwards downwards uh uh uh just to avoid
any uh any traffic collisions which is
not something you want to have happening
because that very quickly spoils uh has
the chance to spoil your whole
orbit so what's the key uh advances that
are happening yeah
um again this is not a SpaceX sales show
but uh certainly these guys uh moved the
needle quite significantly um both with
their Fon 9 and uh potentially uh with
the Starship so um the reusability and
the launch Cadence that they can launch
even multiple flights uh per week uh is
is truly impressive and uh that has not
happened before and that's really what
is The Game Changer in all of this and
if you look at the cost to orbit uh
that's a key indicator how much it costs
to send 1 kilogram into low earth orbit
um you see that uh uh more or less uh
the the uh cost to orbit has remained
the same give or take uh 10,000 12,000
uh dollar per kilogram and you can have
serious and long discussions about the
validity of this data trust me you don't
want to really dig down deep into this
uh that you come into discussions uh
that maybe even reusability doesn't work
and raises cost whatever but uh just um
as a key indicator uh for the
calculation it's how much does it cost
me to send one kilogram up to orbit and
uh also for a given size so we're not
talking about these small cube sets uh
but solid uh piece of Kit not like a
geost AR uh one that's uh tons but
hundreds of kilog so and uh over time uh
if you highlight that
uh these guys are really rocking the
boat by lowering or saying they will be
able to lower costs uh by orders of
magnitude I don't know how this plays
out we all know these uh Elon Musk
announcements but if that becomes true
that really changes the game uh for
anything happening in space and that's
what's really really impressive right
now um in the meantime uh there's quite
some uh Supply Gap in the market because
uh uh there's lots of constellations
trying to get their stuff up in the air
uh hundreds and thousands of satellites
and also uh Russia not being able uh to
launch uh currently so there is a supply
Gap and uh even worse uh if you have a
constellation uh the key limiting factor
is the frequencies you use there uh and
you had to apply for these and the
licenses usually say you need to be able
uh to demonstrate that you have like 50%
of your constellation up and running and
are using these
frequencies however uh there's a supply
Gap right now and uh many players in the
market are currently battling uh with
that so uh very interesting times and
some uh extensions are uh being granted
right now but that's uh uh yeah and uh
certainly uh there is someone who can
profit from that um but yeah there's
someone who can profit from that if if
you look at the uh app absolute figures
of uh how many large objects were being
put into
space uh that's from end of last year
you really see uh that there has been an
explosion uh and the the growth rate is
just
uh never happened before in in history
so these uh Mega constellations really
change also the the demand on on the uh
space launch side and uh
at least uh until end of last year uh
the dominant player was not one
web and customers seem to like that uh
so there there's good growth um well 1.5
million Starling subscribers uh in in
the bigger scheme of things uh that's
not something that really moves the
needle when you're working in Telco but
anyhow that's uh strong growth that's
happening right now and that's also
being uh shown in uh the valuation um
don't want to go deep into that one uh
it's really crazy what's happening there
company that's worth 150 billion and um
the key value driver for that is not uh
the rocket business of SpaceX but also
certainly uh the uh Starling business
but there's others there so uh just to
give you an image uh Amazon uh will
probably end of this year early uh next
year demonstrate that service and uh
what they showed as terminals looks
really nice and if you look at the size
of it um the small one that's really
neat you can put it next to your uh
coffee Mark and uh feel cozy somewhere
out in the woods um but there's also
other ones that are more geared towards
uh business uses uh for example what one
web you uh ordered from Hues so there's
lots of stuff happening and also on the
terminal side so expect terminal
uh the antennas to become much smaller
much more lightweight also power
consumption will go down uh there's
serious development happening right
there um but certainly that has some
security implications and you might have
heard about the vset hack uh that
happened on the first day when Ukraine
was
attacked you saw the traffic dropping
there and uh what happened there was
that um uh some uh malware uh was used
and uh that they access
uh vs said we a as they State poorly
configured VPN and uh then we're able to
move into the network and the management
Network and then into the part that's uh
able to control the uh software uh
downloads and unfortunately uh there was
some collateral damage uh so like 11
gaws in uh wind turbines uh were left
without uh being controllable uh because
they were using vset so that's a bit
unfortunate and uh there may be uh
reasons why you want to be able to
control that so um you see things are
happening and that's government actors
here and uh yes uh if you read uh what's
really uh being talked there uh there
might have been some 4et VPN appliances
involved and uh question is was that
patched and has uh anybody learned from
previous attacks on these devices
um usual security practice uh should be
applied there and uh yes uh there's more
moving Targets in there like ground
station operators uh some are
controlling everything in their value
chain others are using existing players
in that market um also like Distributors
read Sellers and everyone needs to have
access uh to parts of the network
another one uh happening recently was
Doo tort uh that's a Russian provider uh
that works for for the
military and uh that was ATT teack uh
for a couple of days ago um and uh they
were was Data ex exfiltrated and um
not not such a long time it was off if
you look at the data but uh what was
exfiltrated believe it or not um because
uh it was attributed to wner but uh some
would say that that should be taken with
a more than a grain of salt um some
basic infrastructure how a uh satellite
uh provider works
so lots of interesting data out there if
you fancy looking into that um there's
also um official uh uh hackathons going
on so hacker hat uh just happened and
also Issa uh did some uh hack scet with
Talis uh that was very interesting to
watch uh what happened there so Isa
provided a uh dummy satellite uh a real
satellite and heck Set uh just uh also
use the real satellite this time um so
uh there was an exercise being done uh
how can you hack a satellite and uh uh
even though that is a platform uh where
you can more or less register your
payload that gets uploaded and executed
you can download the pictures whatever
um you you can gain control if you know
how and uh the intrusion uh more more or
less persisted uh the the threat there
and uh so if that would have been some
uh uh uncontrolled environment this was
all friendly uh work that was done uh
that's not so nice to have happening um
but that's nothing new so uh there's
lots of Stories on how satellites were
hacked over the years uh and uh even
satellites were bring were brought down
and uh crash back to Earth so what do
you do uh first of all don't trust uh
the network uh it may be compromised as
any other network uh and certainly do
not assume availability for example if
you're running wind turbines and always
uh also use encryption uh uh if you're
doing that and maybe even uh look if the
network looks trustworthy for you over
time like uh some crazy bgp stuff
happening
um so but from from a hacker perspective
um this is not a new thing um you may
remember uh uh Captain Midnight uh that
was jamming the uh the the cable TV
signal uh back in the US uh or Max hat
room uh where some guy uh uh broadcast
uh signals up to the satellite that was
Distributing
and not that long ago uh some in the
Czech Republic uh you remember these uh
uh uh TV channels where uh uh a camera
is panning over nice landscape so that
uh should stimulate tourism uh some some
uh folks uh changed that and uh also
showed some nuclear explosion in that
imager so that raised an eyebrow or two
um but I mentioned that earlier there's
lots of attack vectors here so there's
the enduser uh devices the router the
antenna uh that's being used and uh
that's all in the hands of many many
many people so security security
researchers as well but you can also
have a look at uh all the internal uh
structure uh so we talked about the uh
uh command and control that's necessary
uh to keep the constellation at work the
uh uh the uh collision avoidance that's
happening there so that's absolutely
critical and uh of highest importance to
keep alive but there's lots of other uh
customer facing systems like uh uh
billing whatever uh or websites uh that
allow for interesting uh
work um but you know what I want to
convey is the message there's lots of
lots lots and lots of uh moving Wheels
in this whole thing it's a highly
complex thing and I I'm even tending to
compare it to what's happening in a
mobile network it's it's really super
complex and you can uh even look at
physical uh Avenues of making contact
and uh don't know if you can see that
that's not uh James Bond movie uh that's
a mission that's uh uh due to happen in
the not too distant future
by Isa uh that's going to capture a
satellite and you will see many more
players in that field that for example
will be refueling satellites or uh
repositioning satellites so uh there's
uh interesting stuff happening in that
Arena but you can also uh be more down
to earth and just just use uh open
source intelligence so uh when a player
is for example applying for licenses
with a local Council to build a Gateway
uh they make nice presentations and tell
you uh how these antennas work uh how
much power is being
used one of the more interesting pieces
of work uh in the recent time was done
by Leonard wter uh in uh at blackhead uh
so he was glitching uh the older version
of The Styling terminal uh and uh more
or less uh achieved full control of that
one uh very nice uh attack and uh so uh
he he was able to uh uh get rude uh and
uh be persistent there and also uh uh
played fairly with staling and also
staling moved very uh swiftly and
professional on that side um there's
interesting work on uh uh reverse
engineering the network infrastructure
so uh uh pan and others are are measur
measuring uh latency and Trace routes uh
at scale uh so they can have a decent
information on how this
works and uh you can make your uh in uh
inferences on how the network and the
backhole backlinks look
like um there's also interesting work
happening on how the stalling schul
Works um and uh turns out uh that what
has been circulating through Reddit and
whatever uh there is a uh 15c uh
scheduling window uh in the terminal uh
and uh every 15 seconds uh the terminal
might pick a new satellite and you see
uh this uh difference in pink situation
happening there and uh you see also that
uh different devices or Mech addresses
might be treated differently uh possibly
in their internal routing happening
there um interesting work um also uh for
example which satellites are being
preferred so they uh looked at the uh
obstruction Maps uh in the starlink
terminal uh so the terminal uh Maps the
trajectory of a satellite to find out if
there are any obstructions in uh in its
field of vision and they found uh that
more or less uh it tends to use uh
anything with an inclination of 45 to
90° um there may be variances depending
on where the terminal is and also uh for
example there's an exclusion Zone you
don't want your styling uh to uh beam
into the geostationary orbit because
there's some frequency reuse happening
there um another uh way of uh getting
information about that providers uh work
by Microsoft uh where they looked at uh
screenshots from speed tests uh posted
on Reddit and also the user sentiment
happening there so they found out uh
that uh uh speed uh seemed to decrease
or latency uh seemed to De uh increase
over time and now it's uh going down uh
as the constellation is expanding so
there's lots of alternative ways uh to
to look at that and uh another one was
how to break the service there was a way
to uh uh uh tell the terminal um to uh
via
gprc uh to stal the antenna and then
break the router and more or less that
uh made it incapable of uh uh being uh
without uh Power cycling uh being used
again uh there's an nice uh SSH uh uh
console available uh or not available
with a nice greeting and uh there's also
Bounty programs uh from one web SpaceX
is doing the same and that also um let's
say that gives inspiration uh on where
to look uh or hopefully not to look and
also uh one web is doing that so I'm
speeding up a little um yeah lots of
interesting things happening here and
there's one more thing
um mobile is going set light as well and
uh you may have heard about T-Mobile uh
cooperating with uh starlink uh and
there's other players out in that market
uh that will uh more or less fly base
stations over your head and that's also
happening in the standardization Circuit
of 3gpp that is defining uh 5G uh 6G 7g
over time uh expect lots of interesting
stuff to happen there uh because uh that
will provide uh mobile access uh pretty
much all around the
globe
so complex systems uh many angles of
attack uh uh lots of Uncharted Territory
uh so this is more an invitation uh from
my point of view to to look into this
and uh because over time the importance
of these magga constellations will be
high and I expect the services to grow
and I have them safe and sound and work
well and uh not being shut down uh uh by
for example uh military
aggresses um so overall I'm I'm super
excited excited what's going on right
now um uh really attractive uh products
coming out uh I I would expect that
Amazon uh will be a aggressive uh and
value driven uh consumer offer real
reliability is high it it works uh I'm a
happy farmer using that and I'm being
shown the five uh minutes uh sign now so
I'm opening up uh for questions
[Applause]
now so are there any
questions in we have microphones and if
you have a question then wait for the
microphone so the stream can also hear
you anyone
yes hello it might be a dummy question
sorry for that uh can you speak up
there's lots of okay uh I wonder that uh
why other satellites have a fixed uh
um orbit scope like uh the web one is is
1,000 km Etc but uh the space thing is
350 to 550 km so why is that why is the
difference all the time like is there
any explanation of
that um there these are just
considerations I guess on how much
bandwidth you want to provide in your
constellation and if you fly lower you
more or less can put more satellites in
your shells and uh create less
interference
[Music]
between he was in the microphone that
was that was not a
question so you said it yourself the
economic viability is not yet
proven so you said that yourself the
economic viability is not yet really
proven so do you see a way that this
whole crumbles again when it's not going
to be profitable it's
anyway it's a big bet uh you're asking
uh um about the economic viability um
that needs to be proven uh people need
to buy that service and uh pay good
money for that and I expect uh uh there
will be dropouts in that game and there
already have been dropouts and uh it's a
highly competitive space um so I'm not
making any bets right now um however
there seems to be huge confidence uh
from the Financial community at least in
some players uh that they're investing
money there so they have maybe found the
magic formula
there and and perhaps the last question
from the gentleman with the eer cap just
so happens um yeah you you said that you
were using the stalling uh user
terminals from the moving car at German
autoban speeds which can be scary High
um did as far as I understand that's not
actually supported so um did you did you
see any weird effects did they detect
that you're having too high Doppler
speeds and drop you out did you see
Handover issues stuff like that no uh
they actually support certainly certain
speeds and there's
a moving subscription there but they
also provide service for planes so
technically uh the Doppler speed uh of a
satellite passing uh over your head uh
versus the speed I'm running on a German
highway is uh not not that big the Delta
there so um but certainly they can
detect a lot and I know that they uh in
the in the early days they uh were not
using Geo fencing so were very liberal
and now they're trying to more or less
slice and dice their product portfolio
for different use cases uh which they
have any right to do um even if it may
be annoying for me but uh um
they have a lot of telemetry I'm I'm
pretty
sure and use one of the words you most
used in your your speech was market so
these marks that really there was a
change from the last century when space
was done by governments or International
organizations like uh ASA and now it
it's private companies so I have three
questions one is do you think as these
are the same amaz
and and Elon Musk who are already the
digital fism of five American men
defining the rules of our digital
communication will this be reinforced by
the satellite thing and my second
question would be is there some no
second question very short is there some
movement of people who say space should
uh be a common which is owned by us all
and not by private com
companies there is some legal framework
there uh there's the space treaty um but
what's happening right now uh is not a
regulated market uh so it's really a
first come first serve and there's
interesting papers for example from
China uh where they look at that highly
critical and say we must be in that game
uh in order to be able to compete
otherwise the orbits will all be
polluted by other players for example um
regarding the
um uh is it us only no uh China for
example will bring up a huge
constellation there's a wasp here you go
away please thanks um there uh Europe
will have a constellation up and running
Iris 2 um however that will look like um
it's bit up in the air for me but uh the
tender is out now um that will be more
focused on on government and critical
infrastructure uses um but also uh to
provide benefits especially for Africa
uh where satellite internet certainly
has a high net benefit uh for the local
communities because uh providing high
bandwidth uh through traditional means
in rural places is super costly and
therefore uh not happening in many times
so I I see your point um uh you you need
the money to bring the satellites up
there uh we're talking about billions
and uh that's where uh market dynamics
kick in I guess that's the sad
truth well thank you very much I think
it was exceptionally good talk um very
interesting topic so thank you very much
for coming and we are out of time now
because the next talk um is also be here
in 14 minutes now and uh we need some
some time to change the stage and um
thank you very much for coming and if
you have more question um you can do it
privately I will be around here for a
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minute