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n
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a
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thank you Nick and Alishka for the love
music uh Welcome to our fireside chat
tonight uh with our guests Africa and uh
Mitch Alman I'm your moderator Scotty
Allen and tonight we'll be discussing uh
hack spaces and Mak spaces and maybe to
get started uh I'll have each of you in
introduce yourself uh AFA would you
would you please start uh sure so I'm
AFA or known as Africa in the chaos
family um my name is Sandra also and
yeah where to start I'm in chaos family
since 2010 actively at the at the events
um but also part of um working group
against data retention for example
starting in 2007 when we worked against
uh State surveillance um in Europe and
in Germany and I was running Republic
program um so that is something uh
really inspiring and uh great to do so
got to know a lot of amazing people
through that uh also and since 2018 I'm
being I'm part of a Global Network of
hackers makers social innovators that's
called Global Innovation Gathering so
I'm working for this also like as my day
job which is an amazing privilege to
have as a day job um so to bring
together like 170 people from all over
the world um African countries um South
American countries Asian countries
mostly but we also have quite a few
members nowadays in Europe and working
in anything around open Hardware around
like openness of and sharing of um of
all kinds of patterns and uh knowledge
and um like things we learn throughout
creating uh hacker spaces creating
Innovation hubs
creating uh social change in communities
so that that's the thing I'm doing uh
dayto day so it's really nice fantastic
Mitch would you like to introduce
yourself sure um my name is Mitch Altman
and uh regarding like hacker spaces
maker spaces Etc the the intro to me was
being invited to my first hacker
conference in
2006 uh to give a talk about TV be gone
which is one of my inventions that I
became internet famous for uh turns off
televisions in public places I've made a
living on that since since uh 2004 kind
of crazy and um at the in the audience
in this uh yeah it's actually hope um
conference hackers on planet Earth in
2006 was my first hacker conference in
the audience there when I gave my talk
was uh constanza from CCC who invited me
to come to the following Congress 23 C3
uh to give basically the same talk and
and I did and um the first hacker
conference changed my life tremendously
I met so many people I'm still close
friends with and I've been helping
organize with hope ever since and um and
then coming to Berlin where I fell in
love with Berlin and met so many people
there who I'm still close friends with
and just opened up this whole network
that I had no clue existed before and um
the community I felt was so incredibly
positive where everyone's teaching and
sharing and learning together and I
couldn't wait till the next one and the
next one was Camp
2007 uh not too far from here
and uh there were people German hackers
who were researching and near the end of
their research for what would become the
hacker space design patterns and they
through that encouraged everyone who was
there to start the own hacker space to
learn from what's worked and what hasn't
worked from hacker spaces uh around the
world which was pretty much mostly just
Germany and one in Austria and um and
because of that me and uh Bri Pettis and
Nick far uh started three of the early
hacker spaces in the US noisebridge NYC
resistor hack DC and all around the same
time right yeah same time 20072 2008 and
we had a lot of help we helped each
other other people were excited about it
everyone's watching and it turned out to
be huge success for everyone and wow
there was a lot of work there was a lot
of ups and downs but overall it felt
really great to be doing that and as a
result all of that plus the hacker
spaces that existed here along with the
hacker space design patterns which by
then were published uh online and um it
became examples and people helping each
other to form new hacker spaces and
encouraging more and more of this and
soon there were several hundred and then
thousands around the world of hacker
spaces so I've been involved with
helping hacker spaces uh ever since and
sharing what's I've seen work for
noisebridge uh the one I helped start
and then learning from other ones and
see what problems they have and how they
solve them and sort of cross-pollinating
and and helping people overcome problems
and also grow uh uh better as as a
result so um
yeah that's probably a good enough intro
for now fantastic um a quick
introduction for me I'm Scotty Allen uh
I run a a YouTube channel called strange
Parts um and uh I it's actually really a
a great honor to to do this because um
Mitch you're a huge part of the reason
I'm here today and doing what I'm doing
um and you're working encouraging hacks
spaces and makes spaces across the world
is has uh you know pretty fundamentally
changed my life um I originally we met
originally through noisebridge um uh in
San Francisco um and I later became a a
member of noisebridge and was very
active and that led to me going to Hope
and going to Congress and coming to camp
in uh 2015 um and then that led to me
going on a hacker trip to China with you
um to go visit a whole bunch of hacker
spaces there um and I immediately fell
in love with China which then later led
to me um wanting to make videos to share
with people back home at noisebridge um
which led to me uh some accidentally
starting a YouTube channel and um and
becoming my my full-time um
preoccupation and and occupation um uh
so this is this is a conversation is
near and dear to my heart um well
professional hackers yeah kind of yeah
which is a weird thing to say um uh I
wanted to start with you know I think I
think the audience that's watching
this knows broadly what a hacker space
is and initially I thought I wouldn't
ask this question but based on
conversations with both of you today I
think it's worth worth asking which is
what what are we talking about what is a
hackspace what is a makespace and maybe
what else can we fit in this category
that wouldn't call itself a A makespace
or hack space but is this same type of
space or Community or has similar
intentions um yeah I don't know I'll put
it up to either one of you yeah we
always like Define it of course as in
some way volunteer run
um so where you can do all the different
things community-led uh so that
you're like creating things that you
want to use yourself like you create the
workshops you create uh the living room
situation and all the things that you
want to create yourself um and for the
people around you that maybe don't have
the capacity to create it themselves um
and yeah we have many people in the
network uh who are running also like
more like we would see it as like we
from from the chaos family would see it
as commercial spaces like labeled as
Innovation hubs or labeled as um like
spaces where startups are incubated or
where you can create products uh with um
the hardware and so those may not be
entirely volunteer run right yeah
totally they they are like they have
business models and we think business
models could be something uh yeah we
look at it uh with
um but I wouldn't call those hacker
spaces but I think in many regions uh
it's super important to say these still
qualify they do the same cool things
what we do here but they need some kind
of um um substance uh to uh run so they
can't run purely on um the donations
from the members for example so in some
ways I would even uh include them um
sometimes yeah yeah certainly there's
overlap
and uh back back in the earlier days of
these sort of startup incubator things
there was one in China called hack or
Hax elator uh which became
hack excuse me oh the dust here in my
lungs are hurting sorry but um uh but
it's worth it and uh accelerator started
off being pretty interesting I think uh
start bringing people from the outside
in to um uh be part of this um
infrastructure of China for developing
so easily with all of the infrastructure
there just readily available at your
fingertips and you could do so much
magic that way but there were so few
back then of Chinese people doing that
and the idea at the beginning anyways
was to have Outsiders come and then have
that be a setup for people within China
to start growing into so they can make a
living doing meaningful projects near
and dear to their heart and so it was
very much that the name hacks elator uh
was appropriate it uh nowadays is more
of just your run-of-the-mill kind of
VC's venture capitalist investors coming
in and with the promise of we're all
going to get rich and uh and just
manipulating people
into uh doing startups so that these
investors can sell stock and get out
before everyone else realizes how little
value these shares of stock have
uh pump and dump or uh pyramid scams
anyways um yeah that's not the people
I'm talking about no exactly that's what
things have become and you know we live
under capitalism we probably all noticed
and um wherever money can be made it
will and it doesn't matter what the
other consequences are and so anything
we do will be used by some people for
this um but that doesn't mean that we
can't use what we have to do things that
continue to be meaningful for us
personally for those around us and um at
Hecker spaces that's kind of what it's
about these physical spaces where people
come together in community to support
one another to encourage each other to
learn and I like encouraging people to
find projects that um other people might
also find meaningful and if that's the
case then that's exactly what other
people might pay you to offer and then
you can share that and make a living on
a project you love just like I do from
TV begone and gives me the time to go
around giving all the workshops and
everything that I do um to be a
professional hacker whatever them and um
like I'm doing here just doing all these
workshops and being totally exhausted
and loving it and um yeah so these
physical spaces are about in my view the
community is the main thing and then we
have tools that people within the
community feel are important that they
can get the resources to acquire uh to
allow the people to do the projects they
think are totally [ __ ] cool and
awesome and hopefully that some people
at least can make a living on to support
themselves and other people around them
hiring some people whatever to grow some
local economy that can help so many
people and who knows what happens from
there so but that's kind of my my
personal thing hacker spaces don't have
to have have to have that um I like it
when they do but um yeah so the tools
that hacker spaces maker spaces fabl
Labs all these different names um even
accelerators uh if they share that
mindset it's the sharing of that mindset
in the community aspects of encouraging
teaching sharing learning with one
another that I think is the most
important thing and that's for me what
defines these kind of spaces yeah yeah I
agree that this kind of openness this
like also welcoming new people and being
inclusive of different kinds of uh like
perspectives and uh new people is super
important yeah absolutely now and then I
mean the design patterns still apply
right so absolutely yeah so just a word
about design patterns if any of you out
there uh listening watching uh don't
know about the design patterns look that
up yes please yeah there's there's a
website that we started in 2008 to
encourage people to come together and
support each other for hacker spaces
maker spaces Etc um hackers spaces. org
and we all know about it here we talked
about it earlier um but on there is the
original design patterns plus a whole
bunch that people have added before and
this is what's worked well and not so
well for hacker spaces around the world
and it's way worth reading for pretty
much any kind of community group uh
because there's great great advice there
and it doesn't mean that just because it
works here you should do it or it didn't
work there so you shouldn't but just
think about these things and learn from
it we can learn and help one another
this way hopefully a way of passing on
lessons that other spaces have learned
the hard way uh and and hopefully
providing patterns and templates of how
to avoid that yourself and and not
having to necessarily learn every
Pitfall or potential challenge through
first principles but rather Hard Knox
experience that's also very hard like
some some failures to have to do
yourself to really learn what's
important for Community yes abut but
yeah you can you can read about it and
then you have already been warned and
you don't need to bring it until like
the last minute or maybe at least can
identify when you're starting to hit one
of the one of the pitfalls and and know
to go sort of look at what other people
have done uh to to get around it um yeah
like uh oh this is what they meant
moment yeah yes yes exactly I one of the
things wanted to touch on and ask is I
think when a lot of people think of
hacker spaces they think of very
specific types of activities they think
of electronics they think of computers
they think of 3D printing um and I think
I think we all somewhat implicitly are
talking about a lot more but I'd like to
make it explicit for the audience what
what types of spaces are you thinking
are you each thinking of when you think
of this broader Community whether it be
hack spaces Mak spaces Innovation
centers um you know uh Fab Labs what are
we talking about and what what
potentially maybe should we be including
in this that we as a uh hackspace
Community don't
currently uh this so much that maybe
it's not in the traditional sense of the
word but uh for like for the German
hacker Community there are many many
things also the political hacking that
was already there uh in the'80s so um
that's something when I joined um chaos
uh that more and more talks at the
Congress and camps became like political
and some people were criticizing this uh
but it's like inherent in in the whole
mindset I I would say so talk more about
that why why is it inherent because
you're repurposing in all levels like
you're hacking politics uh trying to um
take all Technologies uh and also apply
apply them to new things and um I was
thinking also about things like more and
more people in the last uh 10 years or
15 years uh started to also to do
biohacking for example and also like
body hacking all these kind of different
things and everywhere in all like things
there's always hacking as a term also in
like buzzword and uh
major yeah public discussions so it's
not it's not a term anymore that we have
exclusively for maybe it never was um
but yeah all these kind of things
they're super interesting to look at uh
that happened 200 years ago or 500 years
ago like fermentation how did we create
our food traditionally so that it served
our bodies uh uh the last uh 2,000 years
maybe and then only in the past 100 or
80 or I don't know how long uh since
after World War II maybe uh we started
to have this kind of indust
industrialized food system uh where we
don't prepare the grains the wheat or
the maze anymore like we should with
fermentation so more and more people get
this kind of health issues uh and this
is all knowledge that is
resurfacing uh slowly and with
biohacking with food hacking uh is also
yeah rediscovered in this kind of
community which I find so so cool and
it's so important to to refine and also
this connect with nature like dor as a
as a concept of bringing together
environmentalism and uh making and
hacking is is super cool yeah and super
like evolving
yeah you probably have more well we all
know a lot so uh there's a couple things
there that make me a couple points I
want to make from what you said um so
politics uh is I also agree inherently a
part of this whole scene in the country
that I used to live in um politics is
kind of something people are allergic to
and bringing the concept of politics up
directly makes people very uncomfortable
especially lately where things are so
polarized over there and um all over the
world to varying degrees um when we
started noisebridge it was explicitly
political
we were a whole bunch of people who kind
of identified in our own brands of
anarchist hippie weirdo Punk queer
whatever and uh we saw that everything
we did had an effect and the
technologies that we use whether it's
biology uh or food or um
Tech of various sorts have
consequences and throughout my life and
throughout all the lives of people
involved we saw how these consequences
is we not always positive cuz again we
live under capitalism that surrounds us
and everything we put out into the world
will be used for whatever out of our
control and people will use it just to
make profit regardless of the other
consequences which almost guarantees
that it will be negative consequences so
how do we create things and put it out
into the world so that uh it creates
more good than harm and that's an open
question ongoing and it keeps changing
the Technologies change is what we do
and what we put out in the world whether
it's Electronics whether it's biology
whether it's art um you know art so
often what by people in these groups
goes out into the world and it just gets
turned into an effective marketing scam
and we're all manipulated very easily by
that and that's why my TV be gone so I
I'm just as easily manipulated as
everyone else even if I intellectually
know it it still harms me and so I
didn't want to be exposed more than than
necessary so I can turn that [ __ ] off
but but um and make it available to
others so um but that that's um sort of
another point the the the mindset along
with the community is really important
and so whether people are explicitly
thinking that politics is something we
should avoid uh which still is kind of
mindboggling to me because everything we
do has effects outside of us but um you
know if the community comes together and
they want to do art that's fantastic
noisebridge was grew out of this one
group that still exists in San Francisco
dorkbot and that was before hacker
spaces this International thing in big
cities mostly where people get together
and they have speakers and presentations
uh and it's also very social and
friendly way for geeks to come together
and sort of um just broaden their
Horizons and have fun doing so uh in San
Francisco the darkbot was quite often an
intersection of Art and Tech of various
sorts and and it was fascinating and so
noisebridge growing out of that
community in a big way we had a lot of
Visual Arts a lot of craft and that's
something people don't usually think of
when they first hear the word hacker
space or maker space and uh but I think
it's really really important uh because
it's all about
creativity and not just uh Tech I can
make money how am I going to make money
uh H let's see oh I'll do startup yeah
what will the startup be about I don't
know we can sell stock uh whatever so um
but it's really about the creativity and
just to heart hearken back to what I
said earlier if we can have a space that
encourages people to explore whatever
Realms it doesn't matter if it's Tech
bio food art craft whatever whatever the
community is into or individuals in the
community are into people could be
encouraging each other to explore and
find things they didn't necess
necessarily even know they were
interested in until they came to a
hacker space and saw these people doing
some cool things on a sewing machine or
whatever and that can change their life
and some people will find projects that
maybe they end up making a living from
or change the course of their life in a
positive way and so uh the exact realm
doesn't have to be Tech or whatever but
it's still changing the world around
them and then more people and all of us
Us in some way and that's politics yeah
we we've all traveled uh a fair amount
internationally and have I assume you've
you've traveled and visited some of your
tiny Place tiny bit um but you're you're
connected with many um hack spaces and
Mak spaces around the world and and um
as our Mitch and I and we've we've
visited some um I'd love to talk a
little bit about what what is happening
at
hack spaces Make spaces Innovation
centers outside of the West so Europe
and uh North America um what what types
of things are happening in um you know
the the hack spaces Mak spaces in
developing countries in the global South
what how does it differ from what we
think of you know traditionally as you
know German or American hack
spaces oh that's so much um so one of
the really cool examples I would want to
share is um like in Brazil we we did a
project uh that was about open Hardware
in healthcare and we worked together
with institut Pon in Brazil uh which is
an amazing like creative like cultural
Commons oriented space and also with uh
some other people in um Brazil and they
were like oh yeah we're doing aromatic
pillows uh I was like oh that's
interesting I would never like have
thought of aromatic pillows in this area
and they were like oh yeah and then that
we take the indigenous knowledge uh from
the people in our community uh of which
ar ar aromatic oils are useful and we're
suing a pattern that we're publishing
open source later and this kind of um
yeah work was super
interesting um but the the space but I
would like to highlight as well is uh
one haaker space in Togo that's just
serving uh the 1 kilm radius around uh
the space and they made it their
specific mission to really include in
their activities and serve with their
activities each person in this one
kilometer radius which is just an
amazing uh concept and they're doing it
through like involving people who are
like collecting trash for example to
recycle the trash cash and they are
giving like tiny volunteer uh uh
volunteer fee amounts to the people
participating in the space also
sometimes if they have the potential to
do that um but yeah just thinking of
projects that you can just create in
this uh one kilomet radius is super
that's such an ambitious Mission I think
about you know our concept of radical
inclusivity at noisebridge and this
feels like such an Ally higher bar than
I think what I had envisioned at
noisebridge um it's a a kilometer a lot
of people there so yeah also um probably
many people know sainoi uh who's running
uh the Salvage Garden maker space in
Singapore where during the pandemic
there was this uh laptop uh need for
each child to have a laptop to be able
um to follow the school and like like in
many other parts of the world and so
they were asking for donations for
laptops uh to maybe give a few out like
re refurbish them and give them then out
donate them to the kids in need but then
they had these thousands of laptops
suddenly because they're really good in
like uh activating the community around
them um and then they were like making
it uh it was really tough because they
had so many laptops so they had a good
sorting mechanism of uh getting all the
spare parts and different kinds of
um uh shelves and uh many of the laptops
were not in the stage of repair anymore
but they were still good Salvage uh
material um where they could do
something with it and then they started
to create new things out of the uh spare
parts that they didn't need like if the
loudspeaker was still usable they
created like a cardboard box and
together with the kids they would sold
her a new uh loudspeaker like an
external loudspeaker for the kids or
take the old laptop battery and then uh
build it together so that it's an
external um battery for like loading
your phone or something like all these
kind of things and so salvaging from all
the spare parts they had from these
thousands of laptops um they made new
educational and uh like useful projects
uh out of that and yeah that's just
something everyone can do everywhere but
uh it's just something nice how they did
it yeah yeah yeah thinking back
um hacker spaces when there's a disaster
have filled in uh just stepped up to the
plate and uh filled in with their
knowhow skills experience or lack
thereof and learning quickly because the
community is set up to be able to do
that back when fuk Shima was first
exploding um yeah the collaboration
between uh crash space hacker space in
LA and Tokyo hacker space in Tokyo uh
created a means the government was being
very not forthcoming about what's going
on and people were very worried about uh
being radiated to death so they came up
with a very inexpensive open- Source um
radiation measuring device and that
turned into actually a company that
still exists called safe cast and of
course during the pandemic there were
hacker spaces all over the world in the
US and Europe but also in um um India
and all all over the world uh and they
made lots and lots of face masks lowtech
stuff like that uh just with textiles uh
and also the the the shields um and then
trying to make open source versions of
ventilators which were in short supply
especially at the beginning of the
pandemic so lots of interesting things
in that
regard yeah and um seeing also hacker
spaces in I don't have much experience
in the Middle East I've been to two
hacker spaces there I was a hacker in
Residence in Tel Aviv that's pretty much
um more wealthy people although there
are a lot of people who have almost
nothing who are uh totally welcome to
make use of the resour to do a tour go
to science camp in bazra they're doing
aming work uh so i' would love
to the other one I went to was uh
through uh belal who you know um who's
part of gig as well Global Innovation
Gathering uh he organized a trip to
Cairo when the first maker fair in all
of Africa happened there in
2011 and uh he found out about these uh
three people who are starting a hacker
space in Cairo that would have been the
first uh at least as far as we knew
hacker space in all of Africa who is
sort of connected to the global scene
anyways and um we did a crowdsource
funding and got a bunch of money more
than we needed so we had someone come
along to document it and that turned
into some pretty interesting stuff that
people can look at to learn from but uh
we got donations from hackers faces from
Europe and the US which people shipped
to us and then we brought to Cairo and
maker bought donated one of their early
kits 2011 back in 2011 not all that long
ago even though it was kind of a long
time ago for a human life but um 3D
printers weren't really a thing yet they
were just sort of starting but these
people made one partly uh at their
forming hacker space and then later
finished it with a huge group of people
helping at the maker fair and it was
really wonderful and then um seeing all
of these people who found out about this
cuz we we did these um uh hacker space
meetups where we just facilitated people
who are interested in the idea of coming
together in the community to explore the
various things that they could benefit
from hacker spaces making living helping
the community using the uh garbage
basically as resources to make all sorts
of cool things yeah that's so common
like in uh Kenya
there's AB 3D or something something
similar is the name did just took all
the uh like spare parts that were like
also garbage and created like e-w uh and
created a new 3D printer out of it wow
and one of them he brought also um to
Republic one day uh and then was still I
think it's still in the Technic mum like
in the Museum of Technology or somewhere
in cool we need to find that out yeah
but also in Ghana for example like
they're doing so much and I wouldn't
call Kumasi for example a hacker space
because they're full-blown like educ
Tech educational institution where
they're basically also replacing parts
of the uh Tech education that is not
very practical in the universities but
then they're doing it uh in the yeah in
the hive in the in the hub so so hubs
itself are yeah so crucial indeed and
then they created like Hub in the Box um
back then in uh in Cairo right um which
is basically also a tiny B like hacker
space design patterns uh but adapted so
yeah we're currently recreating that uh
with the project that we're running so
that's really cool it is cool you know
and the thing is like in in what we call
developing countries uh and the US is
like dipping down below that level
whatever that might be but um you know
people H so many people have so little
and there is so much garbage which you
know that's the Hecker thing there's
resources in the world we can can make
use of them and it doesn't have to be
intended used in the way intended and
garbage is intended to be thrown away
whatever that means but there's valuable
stuff there that we can use and for
people who have very few resources
otherwise they can make use of that and
by necessity in these places people make
use of them and that's also a political
issue in the sense that so much of
importing is impossible so there's a lot
of innovation laws uh that are
prohibiting Imports and that make it
super super hard to get the the parts
that are in the bill of materials for
some things or get the proper whatever
machine that you want to have and so
creating it yourself is I think it's the
better option U we should also do it
here um we should we can learn from what
these people in other places in the
world maybe they're doing it from what
we might call necessity but we can it's
important for all of us there's so few
resources that we've been digging out of
the ground and we might as well make use
of what's available rather than digging
up new resources and as the US spirals
downward there' be more and more people
who probably need to do this yeah as
well um you know just as one example of
where it would be very useful but here
in Europe I would say even uh that it's
even more important nowadays that
resources are like depleted and we need
to scale down like we need to have less
less of
everything but also less of the uh high
like the super Hightech and uh create
things uh with the least possible
resource uh use and the least possible
electricity use like be it uh with uh
Hardware hacking but also in software
like writing less lines of code uh as
many people know is hard but it's also
better so like removing things again um
and making it polished uh is super
important also for energy usage for
example so and and I think that's one of
the things like I think in the
introduction they said like um past
present future of hacker spaces uh and I
think that's so much of the future um of
being mindful of um all the good that
hackers makers can do in the world in
the sense that we
are like creating uh technology that
then will at some point maybe become
mainstream uh and that is uh yeah
influencing how how people are seeing
technology absolutely yeah and and also
repair for example repair culture is so
crucial and like having textiles and
having other kind of um more repair
oriented things in the hacker spaces is
so useful U yeah indeed so many more oh
there's so much to talk about there but
uh yeah if if if hacker spaces could um
continue to exist and explore and find
cool things and cool ways of looking at
stuff that can be beneficial to Society
at large as has already happened in lots
of ways but it can happen in so many
ways uh there's lots to learn from what
we've experienced in hacker spaces
there's um especially in the western
world but all over the in the modern
world there's so little Community you
know functional community in our lives
and we as Geeks have found this one way
of creating Community um even if it's
very Broad in in it in its themes um and
and it and it works it's really really
hard work as we all know um it's really
hard work and sometimes it's can be even
traumatic emotionally for all of us but
um but we need it it's so important and
uh by what we learn we can share that
with others so that other kinds of
communities can form which are so
necessary for all of us you know right
now the the world's becoming more
polarized fascism is on the rise which
causes more polarization and people are
freaking out more and more but we need
Community more as a result of that even
as that makes it
more difficult more
challenging so uh we've already been
through this since um like 2005 cbase
has been in its same place since then as
the oldest hacker space uh in the same
place um that's a long time now yeah MH
you know 18 years plus and that's a lot
of experience to learn from so how do we
get that information out in the world in
a form that other people can easily
digest and then want to digest hopefully
even naked fun uh because we need the
fun because other aspects are so
difficult and challenging um even as
they're rewarding well I'd love to dive
into that here I mean I think that's a a
great transition into um some of the
things i' I'd love to discuss of you
know what are some of those learnings
that we as a community have have you
know or we as individuals Within These
communities have learned uh you know
either firsthand or through others about
how to create Healthy Communities about
how to create resilient communities in
the face of both I think internal
challenges within our communities but
also external challenges and and those
end up being kind of the same thing but
um with very different um uh through
different lenses anyway um yeah I that's
very broad but I and I can ask more
questions to dig into it but um yeah the
most obvious answer is for me always the
trust building within the community like
it's not community if you're not like
having at least uh this kind of basic
trust with each other and it doesn't
come like without work so there's a lot
of work of um like organizing uh the
community of um actually having the
space like and meeting in the space uh
without just sitting next to each other
and only looking into into the computer
which is important as well I mean that's
also why we found these spes right um
but to have events together to organize
events together to have cooking parties
to have like all these different kinds
of activities that make you talk to each
other um and that uh help you to really
connect uh also on this kind of personal
level uh which is usually the case like
people are who are part of the same
space are usually also like friends with
each other at some point um or at least
partially um and this kind of trust uh
works on all levels like it works in our
Global Community because we meet like at
least once a year with at least part of
the people um and like the pandemic show
that it's super difficult to recreate
this online so of course everybody did
and tried but um there were so many
spaces that were like really having a
hard time and only like rebooting very
slowly um to normal to normal levels of
uh connection and trust and uh activity
uh thereof and yeah I think that's just
uh the most important part and that's
why I'm I'm I'm part of a housing
community now uh where we meet each
month for one weekend to create
Community together even before we're
living together and that's a lot of work
as well uh and I'm learning so many te
techniques uh that housing communities
use and that other kinds of communities
use that I don't like that I didn't know
from uh our community yet but which is
um super exciting like these very deep
conversations you have with someone what
are some examples of what's working in
the Housing Community That You Don't See
in the in the hacker space Community H
like this kind of openness for these
methodologies uh like
we we have um for example we look at
Scott pack and the community building uh
like patterns that uh he's working with
and and kind of something like
um uh communication that's NE like
communicates needs and uh wishes uh more
from the eye perspective um which is
also super crucial like how do we talk
to each other in a community like do we
um do we criticize a person immediately
for doing something uh if they are
active like and this
we
say so who's doing something is like on
the right side but that's maybe not
always possible um and not always right
actually um so that's creating a lot of
conflicts also because the person who's
doing something uh needs to also speak
with the others sometimes or most of the
times yeah um but then also things like
just sitting with one other person and
uh really listen listening to what
they're saying and then speaking
yourself and what you're saying and but
I think I I was often regarding these
kind of uh techniques as something oh we
don't need this we're functioning
right but but no uh it's really useful
to learn these kind of things yeah
effective effective communication
strategies I mean there's science behind
it right so there's lots of NE
neurobiology social science psycho um
social so social psychology uh and all
these things that you can study and that
you can be a nerd in uh and then you can
share this knowledge again in your
hacker space so that's super cool but
other people need to be kind of a tiny
bit open for that so you also need to
have a discussion in your space around
your like patterns of how you live or
how you work together and how you how
you be together and some kind of open
for yeah yeah also learning these kind
of things and I mean yeah absolutely
nerds tend
to not yeah and I think I think there is
I think you you touched on there's there
can be this kind of resistance to what
some people view as like too squishy you
know it's it's it's you know that's
that's for other people to talk about
you know yeah that's for psychology
Majors or what you know whatever um and
I think I think that
um we as you know uh hacker space
Community desperately need that that
knowledge and that practice and um I
think it's part of the work that we did
together at noisebridge was was really
trying to to help um catalyze some
discussions about how do we have
difficult conversations how do we what
you know what Frameworks can we use for
talking about you know sensitive topics
about um difficult topics and and you
know it was it was definitely a learning
process often a hardfought learning
process we I joined noisebridge shortly
before the the great reboot um which was
a time um around Occupy Wall Street
where
um through noises noise Bridge's
collaboration with occupy W Street and
supporting them it it led to a bunch of
people coming into the space who um
really saw noisebridge as um a place to
have a roof over their head and cook
food in the kitchen and maybe play video
games and do drugs in the bathroom and
um
that led to a decline in the community
where it was a negative feedback loop
where more
the the noisebridge community that had
preceded that many people said I don't
want to be part of this environment this
is uncomfortable environment for me to
be in this isn't the reason I come to
noisebridge and at the same time made it
a more and more comfortable environment
for people who did want to do those
things um and the space went through a
decline and and rebirth that we we
dubbed the noisebridge reboot and so I
think you know we ended up having to
really figure out okay like how are we
as a community going to learn from this
and and one of the I think hard things
was figuring out okay like how do we how
do we talk about these topics how do do
we how do we talk about these topics in
a way in which it's effective that we're
not we're not
immediately diving into a very heated
conflict about something um and and I
think also
defining who do we want to have as part
of our community what how do we you know
I think noisebridge from its from its
Inception had a very strong ethic of
radal inclusivity right that that was
always a key point of of being very open
and and inclusive to whoever wanted to
be there um and I think we really had to
face what does that mean and are there
people maybe we do want to exclude or
are there types of behaviors we want to
exclude um and I think the the hacker
space patterns touches on that but I
think we learned in a much deeper way
how do we need to wrestle with that yeah
especially in the United States and
especially in San Francisco which is
getting worse in this regard all the
time because there's no social safety
net and there's no services for people
who can really benefit from them and
there are a lot of very hurting people
out on the street who have no way to
take care of themselves and many of
these people are mentally ill many are
drug addicted there are some resources
in San Francisco available for this
um and not enough um so some people
tried to fill in that void by coming to
noisebridge and noisebridge just is not
a space that exists for those particular
social ills and as
heart-wrenchingly difficult as it was
asking people who um are there who
really don't belong who aren't there for
the values and the activities of
noisebridge um I became really good at
sort of playing the bad guy but you know
respectfully following noise Bridges one
and only one rule which is be excellent
each other uh
respectfully showing people we we
actually printed up lists of resources
like this isn't really the place that's
appropriate for this but these people
can help you you know check this out and
and even sometimes taking them there and
um some people though were violent and
they just had to be told to leave and
not come back and but um yeah and and
just coming up with a scheme moving
forward the the reboot was shutting the
whole thing down and CU it was full of
garbage there were five tons of broken
useless things that we had to get rid of
and we had I know that because we had to
weigh it in order to bring it to the
dump such a waste of stuff but um yeah
and and then shutting it down only
people for 6 months who are building up
and reorganizing cleaning up uh fixing
up talking about how to move forward
we're there and then we opened up slowly
and then rapidly and within a year it
was back to a thriving Community again
which is such magic and we we had no
idea if it would work it was our last
desperate attempt we called it the
reboot if your operating system doesn't
work turn it off and on again right so
um yeah it worked and so what what we
learned through that experience is there
you know some hacker spaces uh from
talking to people around the world I've
been hundreds of hacker spaces and
they're all different and different
organizations different visions and and
um missions some of them will not
exclude anybody yeah and they see that
as their mission CU if you exclude
someone they have no chance of
benefiting from you so these people are
willing to put that time and effort into
every single person and uh but for a
place like noisebridge that proved to be
too
draining um people once it's too
draining people have to be shown that um
the hurt the community as a whole is
hurting too much from this individual's
process and again I could play the bad
guy and
respectfully show people that there are
better places for them and wow is that's
so difficult and it never gets easy but
we we saw that what what happened slowly
is um kind of like you were saying
through the pandemic people would lose
track just by seeing each other on a
screen um things would slide and there'd
be less uh connection and therefore a
bit less trust and um a bit less knowing
and and as more and more new people come
more and more of those people knew less
and less about what noisebridge really
was about and so the message for new
people wasn't communicated after them as
effectively about what noisebridge is
about and so people had these diffusing
more diffuse and more diffuse Notions
and so what we decided after the reboot
was um we won't have the door open all
the time yeah there were thousands and
thousands of keys for the door so it
didn't matter if it was open or not
anyways and I gave around a away about a
thousand or 2,000 myself so and other
people made copies and that was by
Design but after that the door was
locked and anyone though could ring the
doorbell at any time and if you let
someone in and that was encouraged you
didn't have to but if you let someone in
then it was your personal responsibility
to give them a tour the new person and
um if they seem to be sketchy or violent
or like they wanted to steal stuff
they're checking the police out um or if
they're saying I know the owner here um
there's no owner
here was immediate red flag yeah and we
came up with the notion of red flag so
red flag didn't mean a person wasn't
appropriate it just meant yeah keep an
eye on this and talk about it with each
other and let them know too that you
know we're looking out for each other
and you're part of this whole thing too
and and like these behaviors can change
if you want to stay here cool um you
know just you know fit in a little
better um but anyways people are given a
tour what noise is about it's about
Community not the tools and we're
Anarchist hacker space there's no
leaders there ducy just do it but be
excellent when you do it and be ready to
undo it if people object if you and uh
etc etc so um uh so then that new person
if they want to the next time someone
Rings a doorbell two minutes later they
can give a tour in their own words and
that reinforces in them and so now
everyone coming in has a notion of what
they're getting involved with and if if
it's something they want to keep being
involved with and many did some became
super involved and um yeah but there is
this notion very much that there are
some people that
unfortunately uh for many
people they're just not a good match for
this particular Community or not at that
point in time right we had people people
in our community who you know either
started out as not a good fit or started
out as a good fit and became not a good
fit and some people went through that
cycle multiple times and that's true and
and some people um uh who are very
problematic after uh seeing like they
didn't want people to not like them they
weren't uh like Psychopaths or whatever
uh and so just seeing that there was
problematic Behavior as people
individual various individuals in the
community saw and just individuals
one-on-one talking the person was like
yeah you know I I don't want to have
these patterns continue and there's a
few people I can think of who became
really wonderful members of the
community just because of that kind of
talk and um you know and like a lot of
people at noisebridge had been through
through training like um uh like
official training even for nonviolent
communication is one form I think of
what you were talking about earlier
didn't come up with the name yeah and
and so there's a lot of really great
tools for how to talk with people who um
might otherwise be very untrusting and
there'd be a chance of extreme friction
but you can lot of tools for getting
people to feel more open as you become
more vulnerable
uh slowly so that you don't get attacked
as well and um yeah and it opens up
communications channels to make possible
things that seem almost impossible
otherwise you know even like on a on a
country level like Ireland voting for a
vast majority for abortion rights you
know who would have thought that not
even all that many years ago um and if a
whole country can do that certainly uh a
hacker space can do that it gets more
challenging when there's housing
involved because that's a basic human
need and when people feel a basic need
being
threatened people usually don't behave
at their best um but that doesn't mean
it's not possible and as you're
experiencing it sounds not only possible
but wonderful uh even going through the
challenges that are
difficult I wanted to to touch on
inclusivity and access ibility of hacker
spaces um I think and maybe a starting
point is is why like why
why make you know if you're making a new
hacker space with a few of your friends
why consider making it more inclusive
and more accessible to others um what
are the you know sort of selfishly what
are the benefits to to having an
inclusive and and open Hacker space um
because we've certainly touched on some
of the problems
um yeah I think most of the problems
come from not having an inclusive space
like not having a diverse space bringing
so many problems because you're not uh
seeing all the perspectives like if
you're talking um for example about and
being inclusive for age um if you're
like collaborating with schools or if
you're collaborating with senior
citizens there's so many interesting and
like very inspiring parts of um life
that you can get as result many people
in a haaka space would identify maybe as
I don't have so much to do with kids or
I don't have to do so much I don't have
to do so much with elderly people
because I don't live in my like uh
Village anymore or in my small City
where my parents live and where my
grandparents live and so having this
kind of uh yeah age diversity for
example brings in uh this human need of
connection also with different kinds of
Life state
I would say um so that's super
interesting and diversity of ideas and
approaches yeah totally and also of
knowledge like um I can uh learn so so
much from uh a younger person or an
older person for example absolutely and
yeah I think that's just uh so good um
and I mean why would you want to have a
more people in the space it's usually
also that you want to sustain the space
in some way that it like runs longer
because not every person who's starting
this space or who's like currently
running the space uh will be available
uh in 10 years from now and I think
that's a great point and if you want to
then come back to the space like I'm a m
of cbay and I was active in uh many
years ago uh more than I'm now but I
like if I come back uh a few times um uh
a year or more more than that uh then I
can always see like uh what's happening
and I can always use use the space still
like I can still run an event there or
something like that uh I think we as
hackers and Geeks tend to think
about uh when we're designing systems we
think of them as static right we think
if only I come up with the perfect
design and I do it perfect and I polish
it just right uh it it will never need
to be touched again and I think we do
the same thing when we're designing our
communities or we have the tendency to
say okay if I if you know based on the
the group that I start with if I make
the perfect Community around these
people then it will be you know it it
will be self-sustaining and it will last
forever and and we forget to to
acknowledge that people's lives change
that you know people move people get new
jobs people have families you know and
their involvement with the community
shifts over time time and that
inherently changes the community and so
I think um maybe one of the things that
um we can talk about is sort of this
this idea of like planning for change
right um planning for things to shift
over time and and I think an inherent
part of that is well you constantly need
new people coming into your community if
your community is going to stay healthy
and sustain itself that's one of the
design patterns from 20078 interesting I
I didn't realize that was in there yeah
and they they explicitly say younger
people but I don't think it necessarily
has to be younger people I think it's
good that it's younger people um uh but
new people you know and this is why San
Francisco is now dead you know new
people have come in but they're not not
really there because they're working all
the time to just make enough money to
pay for rent and food and expenses um so
nothing new is new new energy is not
putting being put into Community there
yeah and and so things have uh Dev
evolved there's the only things that are
there are things that are still there
like noise bridge and and and a bunch of
other things but from older people um
rather than new people starting new
things um and the same thing in in in
hacker spaces we must have a constant
influx of people and the more diverse I
think the better you know and of course
we don't want Nazis coming in that we
have limits on our
diversities yeah you know people who fit
into our values you know and the values
need to be explicitly articulated so a
vision a mission uh people coming in
have to know what they're being uh
becoming a part of and to be aware that
there are now trolls in the world who
totally love mucking things up
purposefully just because they can and
this is becoming more problematic now um
so how do you get rid of people who are
really masterful at uh weaseling their
way in and gratia themselves even over a
period of years and then revealing that
what they really wanted was power in
this situation or or who knows what you
know and there are governments around
the world with powerful people who feel
threatened by communities they don't
have control over and some governments
pay people to do this or encourage them
by you know getting them you know you're
in trouble boy but maybe if you do a
couple things for us uh you could be a
little less trouble maybe let's see what
you do um whatever I'm just making this
up off the top of my head I don't know
uh but it would really surprise me if
there weren't you know for example in
noisebridge people who were uh there
because they were told to be there
whether they're paid or not um but you
know my point of view is it it almost
doesn't matter if if they learned some
cool things that they take forward in
the rest of their life wonderful you
know they're they're human as well but
it's their role as an agent which we
have to look out for cuz that can be uh
harmful to to uh the functional healthy
community and same you know of course
here there's there's people who are told
to come here to chaos camp or chaos
Congress just like Defcon probably even
more so there but who knows um so um
yeah having a diversity of people who
fit in with the community who will help
it grow and evolve and change over time
in a a manageable way that's good for
the community and for that I think the
more diverse the better yeah yeah we
were just running a research project
around this uh in critical making where
we just published some like a tiny
handbook based also on the exine
experience of um uh some people there
like how to create the more inclusive
space like what do you need to um have
uh good patterns uh maybe we should
added to the hacker space design
patterns at some
point um of what you should communicate
for examp example uh like have on your
website that your wheelchair accessible
or not if the toilet for example is not
wheelchair accessible that's not always
a problem uh but you just need to
communicate it before and maybe have
like a partnership with a nearby shop or
a nearby restaurant where people can go
to the bathroom and like be just aware
of these things and just having this
checklist hopefully helps some people to
be more aware of some parts of what they
don't do at the moment or maybe they
find oh I do something different that is
not there yet so hopefully they
contribute um but yeah just I think this
kind of process for new people um that
you described for like having some kind
of buddy or Mentor uh for the new ones
uh is so helpful also to see who are
actually fitting in and who um are not
and seeing like which ones of those that
currently don't fit in do we want to
have anyway like who of those who don't
have really much time which is often
like also an issue um or who uh maybe
don't have money uh to contribute to the
membership fee or something like these
things uh it's always good to reflect
then how how can we do things
differently like many of the hacker
spaces nowadays have this kind of model
where you can choose what you pay from
like even zero EUR uh to be a member of
space yeah there was no no monetary
requirement for any amount of
participation in the space yeah and then
just to publish hey in the month we need
so and so much money uh to cover our
rent and costs and in the end uh it
evens out because some people will have
the means to contribute more and they
see oh we are like not we're not making
the full amount that we need each month
and so then uh they can give a little
bit more and others uh without shame uh
can say hey I'm currently running really
low on money I'm just giving one EUR a
month um and that's so cool just as a
concept and money is is only one way to
cont to the community in the space there
are many other really valuable ways to
contribute um let's talk a little bit
about um uh sort of
inclusivity uh I think I think there are
a lot of people out there probably
watching right now who um have had or or
or are having an experience that I had
when I first came into the community
which is that they're uh intrigued about
hackers spaces but they're also
intimidated by them um I think uh you
know when I um first heard about
noisebridge I was I was very intimidated
of of is this a place that I belong um
how are people going to react to me
there can I really just show up and ring
the doorbell um what's that going to be
like and that experience lasted for a
long time that experience of feeling
like an outsider and feeling like maybe
I shouldn't be there and maybe I didn't
belong there lasted for six 6 or 12
months um and you know I've heard that
from from a bunch of people of sort of
feeling like maybe this isn't For Me
Maybe I'm an outsider maybe this is an
in-club um maybe this is not a safe
place for me to be maybe this is not an
accessible place to be um I think I
would ask both of you what would you say
to someone like that who' never who had
not had yet to visit a hacker space and
then I'm going to ask you again what
would you say to someone who said that
who'd been to a hacker space been to the
same hacker space 10
times
um want to start sure um you know we all
have impostor syndrome yeah right all of
us no matter how accomplished we've been
in our lives or how little accomplished
we've been in our lives we all think
like oh yeah all these other people have
done this stuff but you know I've only
you know I've only taught 100,000 people
how to solder you know and um you know
and but I I still suffer from this and
um how can we not you know but we grew
up most of us as introverted Geeks and
uh it was probably worse being the
oldest here uh growing up as a kid as a
geek being beaten up every day for being
Queer as well but being an introverted
geek as well and um yeah it's difficult
and then uh being part of a group for me
that meant getting beaten up in school
that was not a familiar experience for
me and being part of any in in group was
a foreign no I mean we are not the cool
kids right and um so going to a place
where you see people getting along and
and it it it seems safe but is it really
safe can we really trust this situ like
no yeah maybe I don't know and um you
know going to my first hacker conference
and no one even teased me you know it
just like what the like is this real
like what's going on and um yeah and
then going to to um the first uh CCC
event for me 23 C3 it was even more warm
and welcoming and um you know like uh
these people know so much about like
Internet Security and things I knew back
then nothing about and uh the hardware
people where I met knew way more than me
about so much and uh and yet people were
like wanting me to share what I know and
then th that these people sharing with
me felt so wonderful um but yeah it
takes
time we bring ourselves with us wherever
we go of course right and um even if
things feel really wonderful those
patterns from you know for me decades
aren't going to go away really quickly
but the one thing that I would tell
myself um as I'm going to more and more
of these events and then starting
noisebridge eventually with other people
is um you know I've I've been through
all this stuff and and it really is just
a bunch of introverted Geeks and even
and everyone has impostor syndrome and
we all go through it in our each
individual unique ways but that's what I
share with people when I talk about you
know like if I meet someone if who's at
all geeky in whatever
realm this Camp it's my f event you
might really like it and it's worth
spending the money and going where are
your way whatever you need to do to go
there um and and same with going to
hacker spaces uh or whatever events that
they seem interested in go it sit with
that uncomfortable feeling but uh the
the first camp that I went to 2007 like
everyone's having this great time from
my perspective and I'm just like but
this isn't for me why am I here and um
uh but but something always clicks and
then I go from being an observer to a
participant yeah and and that transition
happened every time it took a while
every time because of my um sort of
unconscious reluctance to feel trustful
and okay in a group um you know and I
still have that in many ways but I have
now so much experience where it just
always works out I just have to trust
that it will and it does and I share
that with other people as well so that's
what I do yeah yeah I think for me it
was mostly being connected online
already to so many people like from I
don't know 2007 to
2010 I and how did you get connected to
them ini like just following people like
back then on Twitter but nowadays I
would do it on maedon of course yeah so
and to um find nice people that would
was interacting with um
like writing each other like answering
like and all these kind of things yeah
and then I was already feeling like we
know each other uh when I met people
like uh and so when I now like meet
someone that I follow in my on and that
I have conversations with um then I can
like oh hey I'm this one we know each
other from the internet and we see each
others who on the internet again so you
don't feel like it's a totally cold
interaction totally and it's so much
easier for to just write a short text
instead of like hey Mitch how are you
yeah yeah so that's uh that's so much
easier for me and then um also being
active like you said participant and
that's like organized participation in
your hacker space I would say is
something to to really do like here you
would be an angel and it's your first
CCC event but you can still be like
immediately active without which the
volunteers here that help Vol are called
angels and uh when I was um at my first
uh Congress 2010 I was also immediately
like registering as an angel because
that's what you do and then you do like
I don't know bottle collection shifts or
whatever other shift is available and
you meet people you do something
together that's super important and I
think that's also possible in any uh
like hacker space it's also done in most
of the hacker spaces I would say that
can have like events where you do
something together with people um you
have this kind of open days uh where
people can come and they could try out
something like sold her for five minutes
that's what I was going to going to add
on to that is is Mitch for a very long
time ran um circuit hacking Mondays
where um every every Monday night he
would teach people to solder and I I
think that was the that was the event
that I started once I became fully
comfortable at noisebridge and felt a
part of it and people you know would ask
me you know how should how can I get
involved in noisebridge one of my
suggestions was go to Circuit hacking
Mondays because it was an organized
event at a specific time regardless of
where I was in World who I was sending
there I knew that it would happen right
even if Mitch wasn't in town somebody
else would run it um it would always
happen and it was it had enough
structure to it that it started at a
specific time there was a specific
activity somebody LED it as open as
noisebridge is I think it's openness can
be intimidating as well and so having
more of a a set time and a set
destination and some structure to it
gives
you give someone who doesn't know how
the community Works a set role to
play so that they kind of know what
they're supposed to do for their first
yeah and then they can sit in the space
for a couple hours and see how other
people are interacting with each other
and use that as an on-ramp and see the
sewing next door and then make to the
painting over there bi stuff over there
and get oh I should come back yeah and
then you would have like people leading
these workshops uh in a like diverse set
of um people so you would have um all
different kinds of um workshops maybe
that are run uh so that it's like
representative of who you want to
attract um because it's easier to come
back again and be less intimidated if
someone like for me for example if a
workshop is led by a
um then it's easier for me um to join it
um and to be like more open for it um
and it's uh same if you're like running
something for young people and it's
maybe easier if it's like a younger
person uh running it or running it
together with uh somebody else uh you
can see someone like you in the space in
a leadership roier more easier and I
think also and that would be like the
less tiny uh contribution but like a
bigger one making something that makes
sense in the space like contributing
something to the community uh creating
something uh that is helping um your
surroundings but also in the more like
General sense like there's humanitarian
hacking uh where with cados here in
Berlin but may probably also with many
other organizations you can create for
example um humanitarian Aid um equipment
and you have something where we really
like have a project um that is making a
difference in the world and where you
can then see oh the thing that I
soldered uh helps someone else uh to be
like Abol yeah have something I wanted
to touch on um codes of conduct it was
something that you and I mentioned when
when we were talking earlier today and I
and I know um Mitch you've been involved
in in creating codes of conduct and
discussions around that um I I guess I
was thinking about it in the context of
you know we were talking about
communication earlier in the context of
accessibility and
that doing work to make your space
accessible is important uh and uh but
it's not it doesn't end there you need
to it it's important but it's not
actually always necessary to do all of
the accessibility things the more
important thing is to
communicate what does exist so that when
people are considering going to a hacker
space that they know what to expect and
know you know based on their needs and I
think maybe code of conduct falls into a
similar category in terms of being
inclusive is that it helps to signal to
people what what kind of space should I
expect you know and and uh what should I
expect is considered acceptable behavior
and what's unacceptable and what kind of
level of safety can I expect out of a
space um totally and you don't even need
to label a code of conduct if you don't
like that's not part of your culture in
the happy space you can also say like
this is how we are excellent to each
other and this accent means because it's
not obvious for
everyone um sometimes in a uh temp space
for uh Science Education F kids and uh
they are uh writing like guidelines for
parents uh on the wall oh your
mic so maybe repeat what you just said
um uh sometimes in this uh tiny like
science uh education uh space um where
they put guidelines for the parents uh
on the wall where don't tell your kid
what uh they are doing there um don't
explain to the kid uh what they uh are
just
currently uh experimenting with um but
let them explore themselves and that's
such an important Rule and it's not so
obvious because as parents you always
like explain things and I think also as
the person who knows something also in a
hacker space you often explain things
and maybe yeah you ask before uh and
this is something that you can like
write in your code uh of conduct or in
your guidelines like ask people before
you want to explain something because
that feels so much more
comfortable yeah and then people are
really happy to hear the explanation
right yeah as I see it code of conduct
or whatever it would be called um you
know having an aware aess team is is
more the uh common way of saying it now
um uh is really a part of conflict
resolution as I see it as well as having
uh you know just saying that you have
you're welcoming to all of these people
no matter who you are race gender uh uh
uh etc etc etc um everyone's welcome and
and just saying that is a really good
thing cuz then someone who's like oh
know I've always been an outsider and uh
you know and I've been beaten up for
being queer trans whatever uh knowing
that this place is explicitly saying it
I'm I belong there is really helpful um
so from from um my experience the more
minimal a code of conduct or whatever to
call it the more minimal it is the
better um and um uh have it be so that
everyone should be encouraged if
possible and it's not always possible um
because of lots of different reasons uh
to work things out oneon-one if possible
and if not to have people who volunteer
to be mediators and have a bunch of
people if possible so that um everyone
involved can know that someone that they
think they can trust is listening to
them so that they know they're being
heard and that's the hugest part of
conflict resolution that each person
feels heard listened to
respected and um from there uh having
some maybe not totally explicit depends
on the organization like at noisebridge
we we found that if we were very
explicit that there would be people who
would do what we called uh uh lawyering
you know gaming the rules uh just to get
their way and that drained so much
energy from the community
so we had a more Anarchist approach uh
Case by case um as problems arose and
many problems arise in any Community uh
and just coming up with creative ways
sometimes involving that person directly
sometimes more like through a mediator
um we would rarely bring people in
Conflict who couldn't work things out
one-on-one together sometimes with the
consent of both of both that seemed
appropriate but anyways there's all
these different possibilities and doing
things Case by casee we found at
noisebridge uh with that particular kind
of community to be the best approach but
just having the the COC or whatever to
call it as part of conflict resolution I
think is the main thing because we need
conflict resolution and you have to
think about that before there's a
conflict otherwise you're just dealing
with crisis after crisis oh yes which
but I think is important to really
discuss these kind of guidelines this
kind of code of conducts with the whole
community in some way because it doesn't
really yeah doesn't help if you just
copy a code of conduct from some other
place and then uh you just impose it and
you write it somewhere and and it's not
a one siiz fit fits all again it's that
there's no Perfect Design here it really
has to be specific to the community and
I think I think one of the things that I
learned through my involvement with
noisebridge is
that a really key part of
of of a code of conduct or you know we
had our one our one rule be excellent to
each other at noisebridge was that it is
important for that to be a dialogue and
an ongoing dialogue that lasts the
entire lifetime of the community right
that when
that when noisebridge had its most
unhealthy moments was often when that
dialogue stopped or was blocked in some
way that actually having the discussion
over and over and over again of what are
our values how does this match our
values how do we interpret our values
was was the key piece right having that
discussion and constantly being asking
ourselves over and over again rather
than viewing it as a design problem that
can be solved once up front and then
never touched again um yeah this is this
is critical uh so there's this one um
concept that might be appropriate to
bring bring up here so I I started a
commune in 1993 in Rural America and I
learned so much from that and I learned
from
trauma not from Joy and um but I learned
and so much of my community community
organizing since then is from what I
learned there uh there were there are
three key takeaways uh from that
experience uh the initial group of
people people who start a community um
should choose themselves explicitly um
meaning it's not just three or four or
whatever random people who happen to
have the time uh it's fine if they're
random people and they talk about it and
they realize oh we do Jive and this is
really good and then they can choose to
be the the people who start it um that's
really important starting point and um
uh cuz otherwise there's going to be all
these conflicts and resentments that
build up and then
it's going to be really difficult uh
sooner rather than later um the other
thing is to explicitly have a means for
rejecting and accepting new people and
how to do conflict resolution and
unfortunately part of any Community
almost any Community to kick out people
who just aren't working out for whatever
reasons and to have all that be explicit
yeah so um that's uh key things and both
of those were fatal flaws in the commune
I started those weren't there um the
third one is a little bit more difficult
to to explain but it's it's so important
all cultures have built into them all
communities have built into them checks
and balances uh that
encourage just automatically
subconsciously with the way the culture
is they encourage what the community
thinks is good in people and discourages
what they think is are bad B and people
and we're all you me all of us are
capable of all sorts of goods and bads
given the wrong circumstances and the
right circumstances so what do we do to
encourage what we believe collectively
is the best and good and discourage what
we feel is not so good or terrible and
at noisebridge we're a bunch of like I
mentioned earlier Anarchist hippie Punk
weirdo queer whatever uh people and we
wanted no leaders except when um uh a
rate and dissolve when whatever the
project goes away or whatever um
anarchists with as few rules as
possible and So after talking about all
this with all of our talks every Tuesday
meeting every week for a year before we
got our first space forming a really
strong culture uh we came up with this
brilliant idea of having one and only
one rule that is
subjective and because it's subjective
what does it mean we are required to
continue continually have an ongoing
conversation about it and that is our
checks and balances so you know like you
took that pile of resistors that had
been sitting there for a month and put
them all in bins in the right place that
is incredibly excellent thank you thank
you thank you um you know like last
night you made this incredibly yummy
food thank you for that that was
excellent but no one cleaned up and the
Rats came again and uh the noise rats
and uh
that kind of wasn't excellent so you
know uh can you ask for help for
cleaning or whatever you know and you
have to be excellent when you're talking
about what's excellent and what isn't um
but it's an ongoing evolving slowly
evolving what this one rule actually
means and this checks and balances
worked for noisebridge and that's not
necessarily good that particular one for
all hagger Faces by any means and it's
not easy to come up
with artificially starting a group how
do you build build in the checks and
balances but they are there like it's
not socially acceptable for me to go out
here after we're done and scream at
someone just because they walked in
front of me or something right um it
happens just in the workshop I just had
so there were two people yelling at each
other I had to step in and I actually
had to yell at someone just stop yelling
and and it it worked out and after we
had a great Workshop but CU it's not
socially acceptable it's built into this
culture I I lived in Boston where it is
culturally acceptable and encourage for
people to yell at each other on the
sidewalk and it happens as a result yeah
right so but whatever um how do you
build that in and there's no easy answer
and there's no one- siiz fits-all but
it's really really important to build a
resilient culture that can persist uh
and overcome even serious problems well
I think that's that's actually the topic
I'd like to to close on here we we we've
touched on several times throughout this
conversation is this idea of resiliency
how do we build resilient communities
and and Mitch I think you um talked a
little bit earlier that we live in a
really challenging time for building and
maintaining resilient communities um you
know we have a rise of fascism we have
an increasingly polarized political
landscape and
culture what what are you both seeing
that's working and not working in terms
of building more resilient community is
in say in the past 5 years right um cuz
I think I think things are rapidly
changing in this
regard well that's that's just such a
big question um and so I think we
touched upon uh quite a few parts but
also help a community become more
resilient and I think I would repeat the
trust the trust uh yeah answer uh
because I think that's super crucial
which seems to paraphrase what I heard
you say earlier and correct me if I I
heard this wrong but it really seems
like that's rooted in building personal
relationships within the community and
using those as the foundation for trust
is that yeah I think so and also doing
something together like um shared
experience shared experience um that's
also crucial um but also having a goal
together I think that's also very very
helpful like uh what what is the mission
uh you what are you creating together um
that then brings the right people also
um into the into the community because
if you're like going for a goal um then
there's more drive so like creating this
kind of Camp here um that's a big effort
um that people bring together and think
that's something you can Circle back to
in the toughest of times and the hardest
of conflicts to say well we may disagree
and we may be at odds right now and we
may this may feel very black and white
but at the end of the day we both have
this shared underlying goal you know
this this shared underlying Mission yeah
and the values also like if the values
are in line and if um people are about
this kind of open culture or about the
docracy or about like these kind of
things if if this this doesn't match my
values then um I'm less like inclined to
actually talk to each other yes
yeah yeah you know one one sort of um
way that I've thought about things a lot
in various groups I've been a part of
and many I've left as well is um
personally I have to feel sort of
metaphysically that I'm getting more out
more energy out than I put in yes and so
that that has to be the case if it's
going to work for me but it also is very
it's required that everyone involved is
feeling that way cuz if I'm the only one
feeling that way or if there's a whole
bunch of people who are feeling like
they're just putting they're going to be
burning out and I don't feel good
benefiting from their burning out I want
everyone in an organiz in an
organization ideally to feel that
overall if not in this particular moment
or even this week uh that they're
getting more out than they put in and if
that's happening then the community is
working super well yes definitely but
that also like this kind of burning out
brings me to another part where it's
just in so many uh communities and
spaces it's the case that there are just
a few Super Active people uh who are
like always on the edge of burning out
uh which is so problematic and if you
like take them out of the community then
uh like yeah either space shuts down or
other people come in and and they manage
to reorganize and they manage to create
a better working structure and so uh
realizing that yourself that you're like
running too much of the space maybe and
and taking a step back and trying to get
new people in which adds to your own
load because you need to like uh educate
them first about what they can be doing
maybe um but but yeah generally that's
super important just to realize um and I
think we need to come back to that
taking changes given that that if you're
you're reliant on just a few really
active members that that doesn't doesn't
allow for change it doesn't it doesn't
assume that that's some point that's
going to be different you know yeah and
we need to look out for each other and
we we've had times at noisebridge and
other groups I've been a part of where
people are looking out for each other
and just
saying I really appreciate everything
you've been doing and I hate to say this
but I think you're doing too much and
you need to do less cuz I'm afraid of
what's going to happen yeah so but other
people can fill in you don't have to
feel responsible for everything saying
that in the light of both you stepping
back is good for you as a person but
also is necessary for the community
right it's it's on both sides indeed and
and so like in in starting noisebridge
uh I have been the person burning out
and being taking all this stuff on and
being afraid of if I don't do it no one
else will and no one will do it well or
whatever being a control freak about it
you know and when I was like a teenager
that was exclusively what I did but you
know I kind of learned over time um and
when I was part of the uh group starting
noisebridge I insisted on it being an
anarchist hacker space because I knew
that otherwise I might slip into that
role again which I could do too easily
but if it's an Anin space and everyone
takes responsibility and that works oh
great I'm puty willing to put tons of
energy in as long as I'm getting more
out than I put in and other people if
they step up and make that happen wow
cool and if it doesn't well it was an
experiment that we were was worth trying
yeah on unfortunately I think we're uh
pretty much at the end of our time here
this has been a marvelous conversation
and I talk for a lot longer um I I'd
like to close with um uh where where can
people find out more information and
more resources um where should people go
if they have never been to our hacker
space and they want to go visit one or
become involved with
one I would say hackers spaces. org is
the first address like a few years ago
uh many people
helped to um yeah bring more life into
this again and also everybody can do
that uh still um to like update uh if
they find the space is not running
anymore in their city um that they can
just uh update the pages uh and that's a
list of all of the hacker spaces in the
world that if they have been added so
you can add your own uh as well so
that's super important and also to get
the hacker space design patterns for
example and other resources there a
bunch bunch of Articles written for
hackers spaces. org about starting
running solving problems at hackerspaces
and other communities there's also links
to lots of other uh articles written
elsewhere that are
online um it's a Wiki so anyone can add
content there and there's a lot of
really good content there it's not um as
active as it was um say uh six seven
eight years ago but it's still a really
good resource there's also an email list
that you can anyone can sign up for uh
whether they're running a hacker space
or wanting to or having problems ask
questions of many people who have
ideas many have been perhaps been
through problems that you're having and
you can ask questions and get really
good answers yeah yeah then depending on
the location uh I mean if you're in
Germany uh of course uh the list of uh
CCC connected um hacker spaces is very
long there's also the network of open
workshops which is an amazing Resource
as well so not all of these open
workshops uh in Germany are like hacker
spaces but there are just where can you
find that uh it's called fabun of naon
and they have a map also of uh all the
kind of open workshops uh all over the
German speaking region and it would be
amazing to have this also like globally
or in other countries so people should
Fork this uh definitely um and then on
uh Global Innovation guide gather in.org
for example we have a list of the
members um or of most of the members who
volunteered to put themselves in the
database um and what I find super
interesting is also uh what we're
mapping currently with open nowhere so
from the internet of production Alliance
there is this uh new standard created to
find out where you can produce things uh
and so you could also uh add machines
and knowledge um to this kind of map um
and and also profit from this map of
course to find out where you can produce
or create things so that's also super
nice to to check out fantastic well
arika and Mitch uh thank you so much for
joining me for this chat this was
fantastic welcome thanks uh and uh thank
you all uh at home for watching and uh
have a good
night thank you thank
you this is